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#1
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220D Nailing
I've been reading all the posts related to nailing in this thread and the diesel thread, but I thought I'd try to post here in desperation. I have a '71 220D that I purchased from the original owner 2.5 years ago. It had 103K miles then, and 136K miles now. I use it as a daily driver, 32 miles a day, highway, with city mix for 1/4 of the trip. It has always nailed when cold, light throttle. Warmed up, or heavy on the throttle, it will not nail. I have not been able to tell which cylinder is the one nailing, if that is so. Nailing was at first, once a week or so, now most days for first 10 minutes of driving. It'll sound like a machine gun at the worst times.
I've done many things, but last June I was determined to fix it, and still did not find the problem. I'll list the items done, and a * means it did NOT nail for about 200 miles or few days, then started again. 1. replaced all rubber fuel lines. 2. replaced all fuel filters (3). Main filter will stop nailing for one trip. 3. replaced the 4 copper washers and 4 o rings in IP. * (best results of any attempt to fix the problem) 4. rotated in set of used injectors * 5. rotated in set of Bosch shop rebuilt and calibrated injectors * 6. swapped primary fuel pressure regulator from 220D that runs fine 7. drained tank (clean) 8. diesel centane booster, and bio diesel gave no effects It runs better with all that done, but nailing has just gotten progressively worse. I have not checked the IP timing, or swapped the IP pump, nor the lift pump. There seems to be no air bubbles in the 3 clear lines, especially the one into the IP. Any ideas? Thanks in advance, Ron
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1971 220D, daily driver, new paint, 142K 1973 220D, low compression 1975 300D, back on the road! 166K 1971 220D, salvage, rear hit, engine excellent 1972 250, bad cam, but runs! 1971 230, engine stuck 1971 220D, low compression, rusty 1976 240D, salvage, engine excellent 1966 230SL, water in oil after rebuild |
#2
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Sounds like there is water in the system.
Run the tank low and drain it again and look for water.
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1985 300TD Turbo Euro-wagon 1979 280CE 225,200 miles 1985 300D Turbo 264,000 miles 1976 240D 190,000 miles 1979 300TD 220,000 GONE but not forgotten 1976 300D 195,300 miles 1983 300D Turbo 175,000 miles http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...e485-1-2-1.jpg |
#3
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From my knowledge. timing chain stretch can affect IP timing so you may want to check that out. I'd also look into perhaps replacing the chain as well, but I don't know if Diesels need it as much as the V8 gassers do.
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Current: 2021 Charger Scat Pack Widebody "Sinabee" 2018 Durango R/T Previous: 1972 280SE 4.5 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited "Hefe", 1992 Jeep Cherokee Laredo "Jeepy", 2006 Charger R/T "Hemi" 1999 Chrysler 300M - RIP @ 221k |
#4
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on diesels most of the time we measure chain stretch and install woodruff keys to correct the timing.
But when the mileage is over 250K replace the chain.
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1985 300TD Turbo Euro-wagon 1979 280CE 225,200 miles 1985 300D Turbo 264,000 miles 1976 240D 190,000 miles 1979 300TD 220,000 GONE but not forgotten 1976 300D 195,300 miles 1983 300D Turbo 175,000 miles http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...e485-1-2-1.jpg |
#5
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Quote:
I could be wrong My 70 220D has never had the chain replaced in it and it has over 250K on her, Pierre has never told me it needs to be replaced. The older cars may of had stronger chains in them. My car nails only when i have the idel turned all the way down and taking off.
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1976 240D 1976 240D parts car 1970 220D daily driver |
#6
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Hey Kevin how you doing? Your right but in my opinion with a chain with so many miles its best to replace it. You can install woodruff keys to correct the timing but the chain is still stretched out and one day it break due to it being so stretched, as it stretches it gets weaker.
But if your timing is still well within spec don't bother.
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1985 300TD Turbo Euro-wagon 1979 280CE 225,200 miles 1985 300D Turbo 264,000 miles 1976 240D 190,000 miles 1979 300TD 220,000 GONE but not forgotten 1976 300D 195,300 miles 1983 300D Turbo 175,000 miles http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...e485-1-2-1.jpg |
#7
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1. I checked Kevins chain, and its perfect. the way he keeps up the car, it will never need it.
2. change the oil in the injection pump on your 1971 220D.
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Pierre Hedary 1985 280SEL, 1970 111.026 in progress Mercedes technical advice hotline: 407 765 2867 [servicing older Mercedes in the state of Florida with competence and passion]. From the standpoint of an honest MB technician, Vegetable oil is a threat to your diesel engine's mechanical integrity. |
#8
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Do like Pierre said. Also check your chain stretch at your next valve adjustment, just because it's a good idea to keep tabs on that.
If it continues nailing, you have a couple of options: 1. Keep driving it. This is the one I would take with my 240D if it were nailing, since it's achieved beater status and I'm not going to throw a whole lot of time or money into it. 2. Replace/rebuild your injector pump. You've already done injectors and it sounds like you've eliminated air intrusion. You could check injection timing, but if the timing chain hasn't elongated much, then it shouldn't have changed much from what was set at the factory. That doesn't leave much else to cause nailing.
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Whoever said there's nothing more expensive than a cheap Mercedes never had a cheap Jaguar. 83 300D Turbo with manual conversion, early W126 vented front rotors and H4 headlights 400,xxx miles 08 Suzuki GSX-R600 M4 Slip-on 22,xxx miles 88 Jaguar XJS V12 94,xxx miles. Work in progress. |
#9
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What is nailing?
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#10
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I need to get a recording of mine as it's definitely nailing now, but I think this is a decent example of the "Nailing" sound:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biiidzR4VnE Mine does some of this ticking at idle at a cold start and a steady ticking after a hard run. Otherwise, idle is pretty good and sounds fine on heavy acceleration, but light throttle leads to random nailing (periodic, loud "clack" sound, or sometimes several clacks in a row, like a crackle). I think I just need new injectors but from this post and others that I've read on the Diesel Forum regarding nailing, it sounds like IP problems can be another cause...or worse yet, low compression/worn engine. For me, Diesel purge eliminated the nailing for about a month the first time, but a second purge yielded no improvements.
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1976 240D "Katja" |
#11
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Nailing
Nailing is usually an early ignition problem. Maybe you have an excess of carbon build-up in the cylinder. Get a reamer for the purpose and ream out the carbon in the glow plug hole......... As a suggestion, get the compression tested in each cylinder. Then get the injectors pop-tested to insure they are withing a couple to five pounds of each other--one may be early. A clean set of combustion chambers with injectors even on the PSI test and pump timed right will more than likely be smooth.
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#12
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It's stopped nailing!
It was the injection pump timing. I had the little drip tube ready to time the pump, but was really discouraged getting the third, lower nut loose on the pump flange to rotate it after the test. So I never did the test, 'just marked the original location, then moved the pump about 1mm., advanced. That is I moved the pump towards the block, thinking that the chain may have stretched.
That did the trick, the car no longer nails, just 1mm! BTW does anyone have a tool idea for that bottom nut, mine is not as tight as the top two. I just can't get to it. Also, someone suggested for pump timing to insert an offset key. I think that is just for the cam (valves), not the IP, correct? Thanks for all the suggestions. Ron
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1971 220D, daily driver, new paint, 142K 1973 220D, low compression 1975 300D, back on the road! 166K 1971 220D, salvage, rear hit, engine excellent 1972 250, bad cam, but runs! 1971 230, engine stuck 1971 220D, low compression, rusty 1976 240D, salvage, engine excellent 1966 230SL, water in oil after rebuild |
#13
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Quote:
In talking to older drivers of the OM 615, a lot have talked about the nailing and I'm wondering if this wasn't due to four possible causes: 1. timing chain stretch 2. pre combustion chamber build-up 3. injector pump timing out of spec 4. water in fuel All except #1 seem pretty fast and easy to check. Regarding #2, I have been told that the so-called " Italian tune-up" , i.e. running the vehicle a little hot by running it in a lower gear, like 45 in third, would do the trick to clean out the combustion chambers if done about once/ week. If anyone has any other info, please publish it for the benefit of the group. Thanks
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Strelnik Invest in America: Buy a Congressman! 1950 170SD 1951 Citroen 11BN 1953 Citroen 11BNF limo 1953 220a project 1959 180D 1960 190D 1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr 1983 240D daily driver 1983 380SL 1990 350SDL daily driver alt 3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5 3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6 |
#14
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I use a long extension & socket to reach behind the pump for the 3rd nut. Chain stretch can be adjusted with the offset key. Use a diesel addative and don't lug the engine. Try Diesel Purge. Take off the cam cover & put the crank pulley on zero and see where the cam timing marks are---early?--late? Probably late. Pump timing is done at the pump as you found. If you have changed the filters you wont get water in the pump. I should show up in the in line filter where you can see it. Otherwise, drain the tank through the big bottom plug. These cars are made to be DRIVEN. Get out on the highway & run it at it's limit now & then. Surely you can find a nice open stretch where you can max it out---all the way to 72 MPH???. Drive it like you stole it. It'll thank you for it.
Sparky |
#15
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minor chains stretch will cause this, but it is nothing to worry about. pump was probably out for work in the past and was not timed back up properly.
__________________
Pierre Hedary 1985 280SEL, 1970 111.026 in progress Mercedes technical advice hotline: 407 765 2867 [servicing older Mercedes in the state of Florida with competence and passion]. From the standpoint of an honest MB technician, Vegetable oil is a threat to your diesel engine's mechanical integrity. |
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