dream come true - my 1972 280SEL - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

pchbreeze · #16 02-26-2010, 02:19 AM

So you think the piston would be ok if it rammed into the valves?

Just a top end would be perfect if possible...I'm surprised at how few shops will do a rebuild...I can only imagine how hard it would be to plug in a Chevy block instead.

fuel pump/filter is a good idea, if it looks old. I actually looked into that when I thought there might still be hope that its just the pump that's bad.

marcedesbenz · #17 02-26-2010, 09:19 AM

A think thats a "non-interference" engine , so as the pistons will not hit the valves, even in a timing chain catastrophe. But I could be wrong on that.

pchbreeze · #18 03-13-2010, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcedesbenz

A think thats a "non-interference" engine , so as the pistons will not hit the valves, even in a timing chain catastrophe. But I could be wrong on that.

From what I've read, and what a few shops told me, that's the case. this 4.5 was built for fuel economy, which explains the 8:1 compression. what a shame.

Here's some rough photos after its first rough wash. It looks like the original paint. I'll give it a good detail once its mechanically in better shape...getting the technical issues resolved is my priority right now.

I loved driving this around yesterday (day one) and it still has a few bugs for me to work out.

Great daily driver...Cant wait to get rid of those silly white walls though.

mercmad6.3 · #19 03-13-2010, 03:42 PM

If it were mine,I would forget the old iron M116 4,5 liter engine. In California go shopping for a M117 V8 and trans from a W126 500SE/SEL or 560 SE/SEL .
They will bolt straight in using your engine mount arms and rear engine mount . A bit of shuffling with the flex disc and shifter and the underside is done.
Replace the fuel pump with the complete pump arrangement from the W126 (did i say you can buy a complete car so cheap that it pays to get a donor car?) and connect the M117 ignition system to the black feed wire already in your car . Connect the M117 starter cable to the W109's terminal block and you have power. There are one or two things that need to be used and i have used the electronic speedo in the W108 before myself to get a more accurate reading speedo.
It sounds like a lot of work,but it's not and the cost of properly rebuilding a M116 can run up to $20,000 with $40,000 not being unusual.
Also,with the later engine you get Kjet injection which is both simpler to service with plenty of mechanics out here who know how to fix them ,as opposed to the ancient Djet which requires both patience and experience to service.
In California you can get hassles with the exhaust emissions check,a good running M117 eliminates all problems in that regard.

if you still have air springs ( I think it may be steel springs on the rear with a leaky Compensator) the M116 oil pan bolts to the M117 engine so you can keep the air compressor.

mercmad6.3 · #20 03-13-2010, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pchbreeze

So you think the piston would be ok if it rammed into the valves?

Just a top end would be perfect if possible...I'm surprised at how few shops will do a rebuild...I can only imagine how hard it would be to plug in a Chevy block instead.

fuel pump/filter is a good idea, if it looks old. I actually looked into that when I thought there might still be hope that its just the pump that's bad.

Chev is NOT the way to go . The oil sump is at the wrong end of the engine. If you really wanted to install a crappy Detroit V8, then Ford is your best option for ease of fitting .
A 32 valve Lexus is an easy installation if you cant find a M117....

Skid Row Joe · #21 03-13-2010, 05:02 PM

A car this nice deserves the best you can afford. Cost would be no object to me in putting it back to original condition. Pure class!

Quote:

Originally Posted by pchbreeze

From what I've read, and what a few shops told me, that's the case. this 4.5 was built for fuel economy, which explains the 8:1 compression. what a shame.

Here's some rough photos after its first rough wash. It looks like the original paint. I'll give it a good detail once its mechanically in better shape...getting the technical issues resolved is my priority right now.

I loved driving this around yesterday (day one) and it still has a few bugs for me to work out.

Great daily driver...Cant wait to get rid of those silly white walls though.

suginami · #22 03-13-2010, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercmad6.3

A 32 valve Lexus is an easy installation if you cant find a M117....

I think you are mistaking two engines.

This 4.5 liter is an M117 engine: 117.984.
1971-1973 280SE/SEL: 117.984
1972 300SEL 4.5: 117.981

The 3.5 liter engine was the M116 engine.

1969-1971 280SE/SEL 3.5: M116.980
1969-1972 300SEL 3.5: 116.981

suginami · #23 03-13-2010, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pchbreeze

Miss Juliana (named after the former Queen of Netherlands) had the timing chain slip off (I thought they just broke

) and some valves were damaged on one side of the engine.

Time to find either a replacement engine or (most likely) a shop that can rebuild it!

I just bought a 1972 280SE 4.5 on ebay this last week. See this thread:

1973 280SE 4.5

If you need a shop to rebuild the top end of your engine, I would not hesitate to take it to Mr. MB Motors in Tarzana, CA. He has worked on the old Mercedes his whole life on three continents. See this thread:

MR MB Motors Tarzana, CA

pchbreeze · #24 03-13-2010, 07:03 PM

I almost did buy the SEL 4.5 off of ebay but didn't think the gamble was worth it (that it ran and would fit). I had Import Auto (huntington beach) fix the engine but I think Mr BZ will get my business next time if its something complicated.

Did a few more repairs today...I'm really falling in love with this car and its certainly the oldest, most used car I've ever owned.

Joe, I don't know about restoring everything to original equipment. This will be my daily driver and I'm not a fan of garage/trailer queens. I don't know if I will die tomorrow so I will drive it today. My budget is far from being able to go OEM or near OEM but I'll definitely keep it so if I can. Already the 1980's Kenwood (remember those "pull outs"?) has got to go and I'm hoping for anything that plays CD's that will not wind up skipping. I will upgrade the speakers also (they look 1980's also) so its towards the bottom of my to-do list. Maybe some wise guy will build a classical looking radio that has auxiliary inputs hidden or maybe a hidden slot for cd's. I'm concerned about all the pneumatic controls also (I think door lock, ect)...not sure what to do if that goes down, especially since d-jet runs off of that I believe.

The paints going...never owned a car this old but I suppose its oxidation. also has some rust freckles across the hood and a nasty bit of rust by the right tail light (seen above). I smacked an NL oval next to it to distract the eye

mercmad6.3 · #25 03-13-2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suginami

I think you are mistaking two engines.

This 4.5 liter is an M117 engine: 117.984.
1971-1973 280SE/SEL: 117.984
1972 300SEL 4.5: 117.981

The 3.5 liter engine was the M116 engine.

1969-1971 280SE/SEL 3.5: M116.980
1969-1972 300SEL 3.5: 116.981

No I wasn't ,I lump the iron block engines together because we were lucky here and never got that low comp smogger. So to us, all Iron block engines are M116. We had the M116 alloy block 3.8 engine and all the rest are M117 alloy block 5.0 and 5.6.

Skid Row Joe · #26 03-14-2010, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pchbreeze

Joe, I don't know about restoring everything to original equipment. This will be my daily driver and I'm not a fan of garage/trailer queens. I don't know if I will die tomorrow so I will drive it today. My budget is far from being able to go OEM or near OEM but I'll definitely keep it so if I can. Already the 1980's Kenwood (remember those "pull outs"?) has got to go and I'm hoping for anything that plays CD's that will not wind up skipping. I will upgrade the speakers also (they look 1980's also) so its towards the bottom of my to-do list. Maybe some wise guy will build a classical looking radio that has auxiliary inputs hidden or maybe a hidden slot for cd's. I'm concerned about all the pneumatic controls also (I think door lock, ect)...not sure what to do if that goes down, especially since d-jet runs off of that I believe.

The paints going...never owned a car this old but I suppose its oxidation. also has some rust freckles across the hood and a nasty bit of rust by the right tail light (seen above). I smacked an NL oval next to it to distract the eye

The radio is the last thing I'd spend much time or money on, on a car like that. Don't know your age, but I've never owned a CD - I'm not going to start buying them at my age. My diesel motorcoach has a CD player in the radio - but I could not care less. I listen to the radio if/when I want to - which is little.

I would concentrate on making it a very dependable daily-driver - then drive it every day. No way I'd make a useful piece of worn MB transportation into a museum piece - it's not worth it, when I can buy 'em in museum-condition if I want to. In short - these guys with garage queens cannot drive them when and where they want to - they'll lose too much value if the object is to increase value by not driving them.

A friend of mine that has more money than brains - is flying to Phoenix next week to buy a 2-owner, '63 Chevy Corvette coupe in perfect-perfect collectors-car-condition, and the knucklehead is going to drive it back to Nebraska - about 1,300 miles - regardless of the weather, road gravel, trucks, snow, salt, ice, breaking down, etc. I told him I thought he was nuts driving a car he just paid $80,000.00 for across the mountains and 1,000+ miles cross-country in the wintertime - or anytime. I told him I would pay to have it shipped door-to-door cheaper than he can fly down and drive it back for. Oh well, thank God it's his money, not mine.

Not knowing any idea of what you gave for the car, (I would guess not a lot given it's condition) to me it comes under the heading of one that qualifies as a worthwhile re-buildable daily-driver - exactly my kind of car. I'd love to have one like it someday.

pchbreeze · #27 03-14-2010, 02:49 PM

On any other car I would make the radio a priority (because i love music) but I'm with you, that's the last thing I want to do. I'm fixing anything that doesn't work first, and I'm glad that its going easier than I thought.

Your friend is nuts. He's going to cause $40,000's worth of damage for 1,300 miles of driving. I would HOPE that he will continue driving it regularly once its home, which would make it ok...but still, if you're spending that kind of money, you should shell out some change and have it shipped, not driven...Especially a Corvette (not the most comfortable cars for long trips).

Skid Row Joe · #28 03-14-2010, 03:21 PM

I gave him the name of my shipper that I use - that even has an indy-agent tractor-trailer driver based out of Goodyear, AZ. He was upset when he couldn't get the website for U-Ship to give him a quote late at night - I told him to call in the morning for a quote - he never did. It's entirely possible that he's going to get scr*wed on the purchase - flying down to Phoenix with '$76,000.00 in Ben Franklins in cash on his person - no kidding' without even checking the car out thoroughly while there......unreal is my thought on it. He is in law enforcement and always "packs," so that's good. There are counterfeit mis-represented Corvettes of that old vintage. All he has is some guy's 'say-so' that he never met as to it's authenticity.

Here's a factoid; of the 3,950 or so 1967 Chevrolet Corvettes that were manufactured & equipped with 427/435 HP engines - only 9,000+ of them are still on-the-road today!! That should wake-up even the dimmest-bulbs as to the dangers of buying a counterfeit classic.

Don't tell me that you cannot get scr*wed royally when buying vintage Corvettes - or anything without doing a ton of investigative work checking them out first!

marcedesbenz · #29 03-15-2010, 10:24 AM

Looks like i had the interference info backwards above. From further reading of Toms site it is an interference engine, so catastrophic damage would occur with chain failure. Need to look at getting mine replaced.

pchbreeze · #30 03-27-2010, 03:53 PM

I think a review is due.

The engine is good. Though only one side of the heads were serviced and I'm hoping its the other side that has the mild ticking, it does its duty pretty good.

I noticed that a trip to San Diego gave it a weak idle after start up. The engine was warm so I'm concerned about it.

My greater concern is the starter, as mentioned in another thread here. I'm hoping its the starter

but doubt it. I'm going avoid driving it, especially until I find a job, so I can postpone the flywheel job

Three speed transmission...wow. I've never owned one before

Well I suppose it could be worse, and it would be a three speed manual. This car begs for more. I read somewhere that they put the three speed in because the American market didn't like the 4 speed (also why they went with 4.5 to match it)...too bad.

Paint looks good

for its age

oxidizing, chips and a bit of rust on the rear. I'm not concerned though.

Sway bar is strong. front seems to be sitting a bit low...sagging springs I'm guessing. And its squaky...parts needs greasing.

A/C needs a charge, no 134a retrofit stickers (might go with a drop in replacement like hot shot instead of changing the oil).

Still haven't accessed the wiper motor...couldn't find the bolt to remove the dash.

Rear window motors need my attention. Front passenger stutters when its near the top.

Windows need a strong chemical scrubbing...some spots act like they're going to stay there.

All in all though, love the car. Gas mileage is worse than I expected...15mpg on the first tank, and that was a lot of low speed highway miles. I can't wait to go back to work and start putting $ into it.