Engine Swap Thread 1962 Fintail 220Sb gets a motor swap! - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

mercmad6.3 · #31 07-01-2010, 07:32 AM

this the better option. You use the original rear trans mount. The Drive shaft front half needs to modified by cutting the 'spider' from the W108 front shaft, and then get it fitted to the W111 shaft so you can use the larger Flex disc .
This is a simple job,I do my own on the lathe . It takes about an hour.
Now,once you have the larger flex disc there isn't enough room in the tunnel for the big disc to clear the floor so just in front of the box that holds the front seat mounts,you need to cut a hole in the tunnel about 3 inches wide across the top of the tunnel above the flex disc . Make a box to cover this and hold the shifter .
The speedo cable needs an adaptor . What i do is use the W111 speedo cable fitting and make it fit into the W108 trans speedo cable drive unit.

mercmad6.3 · #32 07-01-2010, 07:54 AM

Here is where it goes on the trans. The W111 cable is a different end obviously which is why this is necessary. If the car has a column shift,you can use it on the W108 trans . The linkage is the same on both models.

daw_two · #33 07-01-2010, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyNMemphis

Hmmm.... How do I "alter" the trans tunnel?

I am probably going to install the automatic transmission that was born with this engine attached. Is the drive shaft the same? Do I need the drive shaft? What amount the mounts? This is probably my last opportunity to pick parts from the donor before it goes to scrap. What about the shifter assembly? Will that W108 automatic shifter bolt into my W111?

GRAB everything that you dare store! If you can get the entire shifter assembly, drive shaft (1piece? If 2, then make sure to mark it before taking it apart),all the mounting pieces, rearend, flex ends, etc. OH --- don't forget; you might want the speedometer/odometer from the donor. I don't know if it will fit into your cluster, but you want the right ratios. If it doesn't fit or has the wrong look, then you will be modifying your existing speedometer/odometer.

It is easier to throw it away AFTER the project is completed than to look for one more thing that you need to complete the project. Well.....that may not be true --- I find it very difficult to throw away old parts.

JeffreyNMemphis · #34 07-01-2010, 11:00 AM

Thank you for the wisdom and experience!

My W111 has the column shift. Are you saying that the column shift linkage for my manual transmission works with the automatic transmission?

JeffreyNMemphis · #35 07-01-2010, 02:48 PM

I purchased a large inventory of parts a few years ago and I have a standard manual transmission that has been in my storage. It appears to be from a big six cylinder. I also have the clutch disc and plate but not the flywheel. It even has a good slave cylinder. I don't know if it will work with the engine I have.

I called the Classic Center and gave them the number on the transmission, no match found. I gave them three other numbers from the bell housing, top of the transmission, and back of the transmission; no match found. Does anyone have a parts book or some way of looking up which engine(s) this transmission should work with?

The transmission main case number is 111 261 03 01.
The back piece that holds the speedometer cable is 111 260 03 16
The bell housing is 111 250 21 05
The top of the transmission has number 198 261 05 05 stamped on it.

Curiously, the Classic Center said 111 250 20 05 is bell housing for 280SE which come from a big six cylinder (M130) with fuel injection. My engine came from a 280S (big six M130) with carburetor.

If this transmission will work, then I have to find a flywheel. Anyone have an M130 manual transmission flywheel in their attic?

daidnik · #36 07-01-2010, 05:24 PM

I did this same conversion from the M180.941 to the M130.923 and dealt with the 4-spd manual trans.

I did this in two stages. The first was a Hydrak conversion with the M180 motor staying, but going from the Hydrak trans to the std 4-spd. This required substantial work.

Later on the same car, I swapped out the M180 motor to the M130. In that swap I used all the same stuff from the M180 motor, namely the same trans as I had from the Hydrak conversion. I don't remember changing the flywheel , but I think I must have because the older M180 crank setup was different and the balancing of the flywheel was done on that crank assy prior to crankcase assy. I DID have to do some in-situ trial and error balancing of the flywheel to the M180 motor in that Hydrak conversion. This is reasonably easy to do provided that you have the trans out of the car and the motor in, but that's another matter anyway.

In your case, I would just take the rear plate off the engine of your M180 motor and bolt it to the M130 motor, and likewise take the motor mount arms from your M180 motor and put those on the M130. The flywheel on the M180 was guide pinned and had 6 12mm bolts. I think the M130 has 6 bolts too. If the flywheel will bolt up to the crank, then bolt it up and try it out.

The pilot bearing is no problem, just buy the bearing for the M130, which I bet is the same as used on the M180. Pull the one out of your M180 and check it out for fit in the M130 crank. I just checked out the pilot bearing between the two motors and it supercedes to the same P/N: 1159800115. The cover ring is probably the same also.

At worst, you may need the manual trans flywheel for the later 6 cyl. I think that one from any of the 7 main bearing 6 cyl crank designs would work. In those the flywheel was no longer balanced to the crank assy prior to assy, but pre-balanced as a unit. Then you didn't have to deal with balacing to the motor in replacement.

JeffreyNMemphis · #37 07-01-2010, 05:52 PM

This transmission bell housing looks like it will bolt up. I still don't know what engine this transmission was originally bolted onto.

daidnik · #38 07-01-2010, 05:56 PM

I thought that you had a 4-spd trans on your 111 chassis car.

Where's that one?

The shift plate on the top of the trans for the 111 chassis car is definitely different from your pictures.

mercmad6.3 · #39 07-01-2010, 06:28 PM

The numbers you quoted are the casting numbers and won't show up in the parts catalogue. look close at the trans for a machined pad which should have stamped numbers ,that will be trans ID number followed by the serial number of the trans. With those numbers it can be determined which exact car the trans came from. All the early merc trannys are numbered this way and each car data sheet records it's engine, trans and diff number .

That looks like the trans for a 280SL . Its a floor shift top plate but the 198 part number indicates an early 230,250 as that is the same trans as the adenuer or W112 300SE . It will work well behind your M180 in the car.
yes,by all means dig up a manual trans flywheel to suit your m180 and use this trans but you also need the gear lever . The column shift will only work if you change the top plate to the column shift type which has two short levers.

You will be struggling to find a top plate! Unless you are friendly with the owner/restorer of an Adenuer you wont find one in a hurry. The SL guys will be able to source a floor change lever quicker.

great find BTW!.

JeffreyNMemphis · #40 07-01-2010, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daidnik

I thought that you had a 4-spd trans on your 111 chassis car.

Where's that one?

The shift plate on the top of the trans for the 111 chassis car is definitely different from your pictures.

The original motor and transmission are still in the car.

JeffreyNMemphis · #41 07-01-2010, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercmad6.3

The numbers you quoted are the casting numbers and won't show up in the parts catalogue. look close at the trans for a machined pad which should have stamped numbers ,that will be trans ID number followed by the serial number of the trans. With those numbers it can be determined which exact car the trans came from. All the early merc trannys are numbered this way and each car data sheet records it's engine, trans and diff number .

That looks like the trans for a 280SL . Its a floor shift top plate but the 198 part number indicates an early 230,250 as that is the same trans as the adenuer or W112 300SE . It will work well behind your M180 in the car.
yes,by all means dig up a manual trans flywheel to suit your m180 and use this trans but you also need the gear lever . The column shift will only work if you change the top plate to the column shift type which has two short levers.

You will be struggling to find a top plate! Unless you are friendly with the owner/restorer of an Adenuer you wont find one in a hurry. The SL guys will be able to source a floor change lever quicker.

great find BTW!.

I prefer to do as little modification as possible. The thought of switching to a floor shifter is not very appealing. Switching to an automatic transmission and cutting to make room is even less appealing. Is there any type of spline adaptor I could use to make my original transmission work with this engine?

mercmad6.3 · #42 07-02-2010, 01:52 AM

The cutting required for the bigger flex disc will only be known to you and your vdeity. It cant be seen. The pressing is already in place in a W111 tunnel for the floor lever to fit.
The Special flywheel for the m130 engine needs to be adapted to the m180 crank, you can only use this as the DB fourspeed automatic is NOT a torque convertor trans,that is why it has four gears. There is no torque multiplication with the "Fottinger Coupler" . But this also gives a superior lock up compared with the slippery torque convertor.
For a explanation on the difference go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_coupling

daidnik · #43 07-02-2010, 03:26 PM

Those manual trans are such rugged units that the only thing that goes wrong with them is usually 1st-2nd gear synchro ring & bearings or seals.

When I did the Hydrak conversion on a '61 W111 exactly like yours, except for the Hydrak, I had to change the trans, drive shaft, the pedal assy, etc.

Once I got the non-Hydrak trans in, I promptly found that 1st-2nd gear synchro was shot. I then took the trans back out and sat the Hydrak & non-Hydrak trans side by side and disassembled both of them. Using a 12 dial caliper I measured the cases and found them to be virtually exactly the same to within 0.001-0.002 inch in length, etc. The main shaft & lay shaft gears were different; the Hydrak had finer pitch gears, and the pilot shafts were different, the Hydrak had a torque converter sandwiched in there, but vitually all of the main stuff was the same. Right down to the shims on the bearings to establish proper end play.

I mixed and matched up the best bearings, synchro rings, etc into the std manual trans using the proper shafts that were in the std manual trans (those virtually never wear out). You can even study/validate the synchro operation by turning the pilot shaft by hand while moving the shift fork(s) by hand and see that it does start the output shaft turning before the synchronizer body fully engages. Granted, this isn't a very definitive test, but you can validate functionality to some extent. An inspection of the inside of the synchro rings and some comparison between them and you can see when the little concentric ridges are worn down, so it's pretty easy to spot bad ones.

In short, I put that thing back together and used it without trouble for another 100k miles on that '61 220Sb. Overhauling those manual transmissions is about the same level of complexity as a 3-speed bicycle hub it isn't very hard at all.

You will need a manual trans flywheel from any of the 7-main bearing 6-cyl engines. I used to have one, but that was >15 yrs ago, and I can't seem to find it now, but it shouldn't be too hard for you to find one of those.

You put that original trans onto the M130 motor; you can use the rear plate off the M180 motor if you want, but this probably isn't necessary, you'll probably have an extra hole on the rear plate on the M130. You put those together and it will work with your column shift linkage, etc.

JeffreyNMemphis · #44 07-02-2010, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercmad6.3

The cutting required for the bigger flex disc will only be known to you and your vdeity. It cant be seen. The pressing is already in place in a W111 tunnel for the floor lever to fit.

The Special flywheel for the m130 engine needs to be adapted to the m180 crank, you can only use this as the DB fourspeed automatic is NOT a torque convertor trans,that is why it has four gears. There is no torque multiplication with the "Fottinger Coupler" . But this also gives a superior lock up compared with the slippery torque convertor.
For a explanation on the difference go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_coupling

The transmission in my car now is a 4 speed manual (130925) attached to M180.941 engine with cracked block. I would prefer to connect this transmission to the M130 Engine. If it is not possible, then I will have to make modifications:

Using the manual transmission pictured above...

"Special Flywheel" That sound hard to find... Is it possible to use the flywheel from my M180 engine? I will need a floor shifter and linkages. I have a clutch and pressure plate for this transmission.

Using the automatic transmission that is original to the M130 engine...

The automatic transmission that is available is probably a 3-speed? I will need to modify the transmission tunnel. I will have to remove the clutch pedal from my car. I will have to swap out the steering tunnel and auto transmission shift linkage? The 280S this engine comes from was a column shift automatic, so the parts are available.

mercmad6.3 · #45 07-02-2010, 06:54 PM

From what I understood,I thought you had a Automatic trans..but in fact you have manual trans Right?.
That 'big' trans you have will fit but it's not necessary to use it. You can retain your existing trans .When you get the trans out of your car you will find it is exactly the same trans. Assuming of course you have the manual and not the automatic.
Now the engine.. You have A M130 in the car now ?
You want to install the M180?
You want to install the M180 and bolt it to your early trans?
Refer to the above post regarding the flywheel from an M130 to M180.

Before proceeding further...remove the engine and trans in the car so you can get a clear idea of what you are trying to achieve .

Ok so if I am right you want to retain your existing trans with column shift.

Yes you can.
You need a bellhousing and end plate for M180 engine OR
You can use the end plate from the engine you have and get it redrilled for the smaller pitch circle of mounting bolts to suit .

it will be easier to use the M180 flywheel clutch and bellhousing . Bolt your M130 trans to it.
You can see if my pics that your trans in your car will be identical to the spare trans only the bellhousing size is different.
The big bellhousing in the attached pics is a m189 but otherwise all the parts interchange .
The clutch plate pictured is a M130 plate in a m189 bell housing to illustrate the size difference but that the splines are identical.

The Flywheel is a m130 item . Remove the torque convertor from the m180 engine and it's drive plate. Look at the difference in the mount holes. As stated so well above the number of holes is different .
You really need the m180 flywheel to get past issues of diameter and starter engagement.

You can use the same plate as the m180 uses to fit the trans OR you can get the center spline removed and swapped with a M130 size if there is a difference . Any clutch place used to do this all the time.
In the meantime ,get the engine and trans out and start from there.