Engine Swap Thread 1962 Fintail 220Sb gets a motor swap!

[JeffreyNMemphis]

By the way... The stretch bolts were SUPER expensive. If I recall correctly, about $25.00 each and required six of them. Not the same bolt that comes off the W130 type engine.

This is a video on youtube with the new donor motor installed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qTlf1RMRVQ

[Flossekapitein]

Thanks for the reply's Emerald Bullet sounds nice with the M130.
Last weekend I have picked up the engine and now I have to find time to swap it into my Flosse. And of course a little bit of nice wheather because I don't have a garage and have to do it on the street.
I think the first thing I will do is to pull out only the trans out of the car and try to fit it on the M130. Then I also will see which parts I am missing. And Stretch, I think it is a good idea to contact Marcel Kappen when I need help. He is always very helpful.
Thanks for the bolt-numbers, but how expensive they are

As soon as I am making progress, I will post it.

[Flossekapitein]

Sorry I didn't wrote earlier to let know how it was going.
I have made the engine change.

I found the catpoop on the moon The number of the flywheel is 108 032 0501

Made some pictures and wrote it down on the dutch Flosse-forum. I think the pictures are clear, and in case you want to know what I have written, put it in google translate.

http://heckflosseclub.forum2go.nl/motorwissel-van-m180-naar-m130-t216.html

Thanks anyway for your help!
In case someone has questions or want some more photo's, please let me know.

BR, Marcel

[ScooterABC]

I have a W111 220Sb sedan with the original M180 engine and the original 4 speed column manual transmission. Not Hydrax. It runs pretty well. BUT....

I bought a parts car because it was a bargain. It came with $46,000 in receipts from the last 7 years / 20,000 miles. The car is a 1971 W108 280SE with automatic transmission. The engine and injector pump were both rebuilt/replaced, as was a lot of other stuff. The 280SE is entirely rust-destroyed so it will not be saved, but the parts will.

So I also want to put a (fuel injected) M130 engine into my W111 220S and retain the column-mount manual transmission. Having read the thread twice I still am confused and not clear on what needs to happen.

1) It sounds like I need an M130 flywheel for manual transmission car and that the M180 flywheel just isn't going to work, correct?

2) It was unclear if the Fintail manual transmission can handle the torque of the more powerful engine. Thoughts?

3) speedometer error - I don't care about it. The Fintail already says I'm going 100 mph when I'm going 70.

SOOOO there are a few of you who know way more than I know, can you help me with my confusion?
thanks
Scott

[JeffreyNMemphis]

Congrats!

Yes, you need a different flywheel. It uses different stretch bolts to fasten it on.

The transmission can handle it. You can peel out in first and second gear. I did not put the car on a dynometer before/after but it is significantly faster. It shocks people that expect a car this old to crawl but pulls away like a modern roadster.

My speedo accuracy didn't change. Still accurate.

My M130 came from a 280S which is a carburetor engine. I kept my Solex units. The 280SE is technically an M127, but should be better than an M130 because of the fuel injection.

You are going to have fun!

Keep us posted....

[mercmad6.3]

Originally Posted by ScooterABC

I have a W111 220Sb sedan with the original M180 engine and the original 4 speed column manual transmission. Not Hydrax. It runs pretty well. BUT....

I bought a parts car because it was a bargain. It came with $46,000 in receipts from the last 7 years / 20,000 miles. The car is a 1971 W108 280SE with automatic transmission. The engine and injector pump were both rebuilt/replaced, as was a lot of other stuff. The 280SE is entirely rust-destroyed so it will not be saved, but the parts will.

So I also want to put a (fuel injected) M130 engine into my W111 220S and retain the column-mount manual transmission. Having read the thread twice I still am confused and not clear on what needs to happen.

1) It sounds like I need an M130 flywheel for manual transmission car and that the M180 flywheel just isn't going to work, correct?

2) It was unclear if the Fintail manual transmission can handle the torque of the more powerful engine. Thoughts?

3) speedometer error - I don't care about it. The Fintail already says I'm going 100 mph when I'm going 70.

SOOOO there are a few of you who know way more than I know, can you help me with my confusion?
thanks
Scott

OK, the 280 will bolt to your trans .
BUT first...before you do this,you HAVE to get the flywheel from the 220 engine matched balanced to the 280's drive disc. That will require the services of a skilled and knowledgeable engine rebuilder. A lot of metal will be removed from the 220S flywheel .
The 220 Clutch is very light duty compared to the pressure of a 280,so it may pay you to fit one.
I have done this twice already this year and in both cases an unbalanced flywheel was fitted to an automatic engine. And in both the bearings were flogged out destroying the crank and block with the vibrations. One through the rod out of the side of a $18,000 engine and the other chewed out the bearing bores and wore out the center main journals on the crank.
I pay around $150 to get the flywheels matched balanced to the drive plate balance which is cheap compared with cost of destroying a good engine.

[ScooterABC]

Originally Posted by JeffreyNMemphis

My speedo accuracy didn't change. Still accurate.

Right, it won't change because of that. It will change if I swap the 4.08 rear axle in the fintail with the 3.69 that is in the 280SE, which I might also do.

Originally Posted by JeffreyNMemphis

My M130 came from a 280S which is a carburetor engine. The 280SE is technically an M127, but should be better than an M130 because of the fuel injection.

People get all wrapped around M130 vs. M108... EPC says:

280S: M130.920
280SE: M130.980
250SL: M129.982
250SE: M129.980
230SL: M127.981

Then some people say a W108 2.8L carb engine is a M108... but I digress.

[ScooterABC]

Originally Posted by mercmad6.3

OK, the 280 will bolt to your trans .
BUT first...before you do this,you HAVE to get the flywheel from the 220 engine matched balanced to the 280's drive disc.

I'm confused. I thought I had to get a flywheel from a manual transmission 280... no? I can have the flywheel from the 220 engine-matched balanced? I'm guessing that means I take the 280 engine with the 220 flywheel to an engine rebuilder to do that?

Originally Posted by mercmad6.3

That will require the services of a skilled and knowledgeable engine rebuilder. A lot of metal will be removed from the 220S flywheel .

Does that make the 220 flywheel into a 280 flywheel balanced correctly? I thought the 280 engine was balanced independent of the flywheel...

Originally Posted by mercmad6.3

The 220 Clutch is very light duty compared to the pressure of a 280,so it may pay you to fit one.

Is that replacing the existing parts with a clutch rebuild for a 280, or is getting different parts besides what one would get with a rebuild clutch?

Originally Posted by mercmad6.3

I have done this twice already this year and in both cases an unbalanced flywheel was fitted to an automatic engine. And in both the bearings were flogged out destroying the crank and block with the vibrations. One through the rod out of the side of a $18,000 engine and the other chewed out the bearing bores and wore out the center main journals on the crank.
I pay around $150 to get the flywheels matched balanced to the drive plate balance which is cheap compared with cost of destroying a good engine.

Ouch. So help me understand a little better -- what is different about the 280 balancing between an automatic and manual car?

thanks
Scott

[dweezil]

I'm thinking of swapping the M130 from my 280SEL into my 220SE coupe. Can I get a shot of where the oil cooler sits? The space in the W111 for the radiator doesn't accommodate it.

Thanks

Dweezil

[ScooterABC]

Originally Posted by dweezil

I'm thinking of swapping the M130 from my 280SEL into my 220SE coupe. Can I get a shot of where the oil cooler sits? The space in the W111 for the radiator doesn't accommodate it.

I can tell you a partial answer. A 1968 280S has the oil cooler integrated with the radiator. A 1967 250S has the oil cooler as a stand-alone unit that is under the driver side motor mount arm. I think a W111 coupe would have the oil cooler in the side of the engine itself, but I'm not 100% positive on that one.

Scott

[JeffreyNMemphis]

Hi Dweezil,

I didn't use an oil cooler. I still have the one that was mounted under the 280S radiator which gave me options if the engine did run hotter than the 2.2 liter.

The fan was upgraded to a six blade unit to move more air through the radiator. The engine always ran within the correct temperature range.

Jeffrey

[ScooterABC]

Originally Posted by JeffreyNMemphis

I didn't use an oil cooler. I still have the one that was mounted under the 280S radiator which gave me options if the engine did run hotter than the 2.2 liter.

The fan was upgraded to a six blade unit to move more air through the radiator. The engine always ran within the correct temperature range.

But that misses the point of the oil cooler all together. The Mercedes oil cooler (in various models) uses the already hot engine water to cool the presumably hotter engine oil.

[mercmad6.3]

The 220SE didn't have an oil cooler and the 250 had the same size radiator but with an oil to water cooler mounted under the left hand mount arm. The 280's have a wider mouth to fit a radiator and side mounted air to oil cooler. What I have done a few times is mount the oil cooler in front of the bigger 220SE radiator ,in the center line with a pair of longer hoses to connect it . Really simple ,you just need to make a mount bar to hold the oil cooler and plumb it in. Yesterdays oils weren't really up to the job of speeding along the autobahn all day at full revs but todays oils mean that you can keep the oil in good condition longer with an effective cooler.