Fintail Info Needed

[RobertFini]

Hello, all!

I am considering the purchase of a W110 230 sedan from an estate for the purpose of building a vintage racer, but a few questions need to be answered first. The car is nearly rust free but it has some "condition issues" as they like to say on Antiques Roadshow: the previous owner banged it around and it has some serious dents in the quarter panels; the inspection sticker is dated 1994 and it looks like it's truly been sitting for 18 years - the seals are all leaking, the engine does not turn by hand, the interior is horribly stinky, and so on...

My questions are:
1) The executor of the estate claims it is a 1966 model year, but I need the exact(ish) production date to determine whether it has the earlier 105 hp motor or the later 120 hp motor. The VIN is 110.011-12-001470; can anyone tell me the production date or, more importantly, whether it has the more powerful engine?
2) Related to question 1, supposing it has the weaker engine, what is required to upgrade it to the more powerful version?
3) The car has a column-shifted automatic transmission, which is not exactly the most conducive to success for the type of driving I'll be doing; can anyone tell me how difficult it will be to swap in a floor-shifted manual transmission?

The price is right, but the cost of getting it home will likely exceed the purchase price as it's about 175 miles north of here. I need answers quickly, before the estate takes the only other offer they have on the table. Thanks in advance, y'all!

Best Regards,
Rob

[RobertFini]

One other thing: the performance data shown in the Mercedes-Benz Classic Wiki (W110-230-Getriebe/en) shows the automatic version as being faster than the manual version in 0-100 km/h acceleration by 0.1 s but with a 5 km/h lower top-end speed. Can anyone explain this?

[Govert]

The slightly better acceleration might be down to different gear ratios on second and third gears. The lower top speed is because of the loss of power in the hydraulic coupling, there is a bit of slip there.

The VIN indicates an early 230 (nr. 1470), but the Classic Centre must know more. You could also look at the (first six figures of the) engine number: 180.945 old engine, 180.949 new engine.

[bwostosh]

How about buying the 64 220 SE I have ?
Black / Red interior/ auto / p/s / p/b 87,000 miles
need I mention no carburetors?
Same suspension as 230s with full off-road plates front to rear
(skid shields are worth $$ because of rarity.)
Mechanically excellent much necessary rubber replacements done,
Brakes, radiator, exhaust, all done read to run
but needs body and interior work just to look nicer.

I am trying to decide to part-out or re$ore.

[tram]

Originally Posted by bwostosh

How about buying the 64 220 SE I have ?
Black / Red interior/ auto / p/s / p/b 87,000 miles
need I mention no carburetors?
Same suspension as 230s with full off-road plates front to rear
(skid shields are worth $$ because of rarity.)
Mechanically excellent much necessary rubber replacements done,
Brakes, radiator, exhaust, all done read to run
but needs body and interior work just to look nicer.

I am trying to decide to part-out or re$ore.

PM me with the details on this, please!

[mercmad6.3]

The only real difference between the 230 engines are the cam and distributors.(some US versions are low compression)
I wouldn't race one though if you want it to live. The M130 SE engine is a different engine altogether .
If the rules permit it, go for a 280S engine with a SL cam grind. all factory and tons of power.
The reason the automatic can move the car quicker is because the Finny trans is not exactly the fastest shifting manual trans and the automatics change quickly and crisply.
Theres nothing wrong with the automatic ,it's same basic trans as used in the 6.3.
You can also shift them manually so you have the gear you want quickly.

[t walgamuth]

The manual swap should be routine if you can find a tranny, pedal cluster and so forth. The trannies depending on year overlap into the 115 body style. the later tranny from 115 and 123s may bolt in as well.

I had a 62 190b with a stick. It was reasonalby quick if driven with vigor. it would run ninety five flat out I believe with 1.9 liter four and a carb about the size of a small juice glass. If driven for mileage it would touch 24mpg at 60 mph using premium fuel.

Course, it needed plugs and points every 10K if using bosch. the autolite or champion stuff lasted half the time.

That car offered with the fuel injection might be a better deal for you. the mechanical fuel injection may take a bit of $ to put right but once right it should last a good long time with minimal upkeep.

[Mark DiSilvestro]

I think the main hp difference with the 230 Fintail motors is the carbs. The early W110 230 Fintail, like the '66 I once owned, used a pair of single throat Solex carbs. Later W110 230s had a pair of double-throated Zeniths, like the W111 230S. and the 250S, 280S engines
As for competition use, the 230 six has a single-row timing-chain and only four main bearings, so a 280S swap might be worth considering.
A fuel-injected SE engine might not fit as the original carbed six is already a tight squeeze into the short-body W110, with very little distance to the radiator. Because of the machanical fuel injection's location, the SE engine's distributor sticks out on the front of the engine.

Happy Motoring, Mark

[RobertFini]

So, I declined to bid on this car due to its condition: I learned the lesson on my first attempt at going racing in a Mercedes-Benz that it's far better to pay more for a donor car that's in better condition than to underpay for a piece of junk that'll be nothing but trouble and more expensive in the long run. Or, at least I thought I’d learned my lesson...

About six weeks after declining to bid, I received an e-mail from the executor of the estate saying that they'd had plenty of lookers but no takers and they now needed to get rid of the car; he was so intrigued by my desire to go racing in such a car as this that they'd decided to offer it to me for $1 – yes, one dollar – as long as I could have it off the premises within three weeks.

So my buddy and I schlepped ourselves up to Long Island and literally dragged this thing out of the garage where it had been slumbering peacefully for the past 18 years. I say dragged because the rear brakes were rusted solid and the front tires were flat, so none of the wheels would roll. I was initially close to tears when I saw how deplorable was its condition: every seal dry-rotted and leaking, every sliding or rotating part seized solid, the interior mildewed and putrid. The only way it could have been worse was if it had been raining that day...

But what can you expect for a dollar? At the very worst, I'd come out if it with a great story and only be out the cost of the gas, tolls and meals for the 330-mile round trip; maybe $300 total. Keep your expectations low and you’ll never be disappointed is my new motto. The upside to this is that the car itself is incredibly solid – no appreciable rust anywhere – and that everything that’s shot would’ve had to come out anyway and gone over/repaired/replaced, as this is going to be a race car and one can leave no stone unturned in the quest for speed and reliability.

So, my question: Since everything needs to be replaced, which bolt-in parts will make the best replacements for what I’ll need? Keep in mind that whatever replacement part goes in will need to be visually indistinguishable from the one that comes out, at least to the casual (or even not-so-casual) observer. For instance, the front brakes are discs, so I can see replacing them with bigger assemblies from a W108, but the rear brakes are drum and replacing them with discs would be an obvious attempt at cheating, although I could probably get away with bigger drums. I can also see replacing the Solex carburetors with Zeniths if there’s an advantage, but not replacing them with fuel injection.

So, let’s hear it – what’s on the wish list?

Best Regards,
Rob

[Palolo]

14" "light alloy" wheels*, either the four-white-band (5.5" wide) or one-white-band (6") ones. Visually indistinguishable from steel, and with hubcaps, if one doesn't look at the tire size, pretty easy to fool the casual observer in to thinking they are stock. They look like steel, after all...

From this page, Pagoda SL Group Technical Manual :: WheelsTires / Alloys : "...They can only be used with the one-piece later style Hubcap. Each wheel weighs 11 pounds versus about 21 for the steel. That's a whopping 40 pound savings in unsprung weight. Add the additional 10 pound savings if you have the spare in aluminium as well, and you have a car that is much lighter on its feet; handles a bit better and takes the wheel covers..."

*...rules permitting, of course. BTW, do you know which class will you race it in (or what the possible classes might be)? Might make the wish list easier to compile.

Did you see the factory's (restored) racing finnie?

PS: just saw pics. Looks like rear end was in a demolition derby. Call paintless dent repair...

[mercmad6.3]

You can start by fitting a W108 axle with discs, it's a period part as 300SE's came with discs from 1961. Use the W108 dual master cylinder even if you are sticking with the drums .Use the alloy front drums on the rear in that case.
Replace the diff center mount with a 6.3 part .
over haul the diff with a Complete set of rubber parts , use the thinnest top rubber pad you can find .
The center pivot bush will need replacing so make sure the swing axle bearings are good and make 100% there is no fore /aft movement.
Frnt axle requires a lot work so replace all the king pins and steering joints . Check the swivel joints on the control arms by checking the threads with a straight edge. They are built with play in them, so it's only by checking the threads that you can see the wear.
Track down a 300SEL 6.3 powersteer box and matching idler arm. By converting to this you will get a really fast steering and if you dont have power steer,you will have now.
get a set of 6.3 front mount bush spacers and use a set of W110 four cylinder front springs .
This will get the front centre of gravity down lower to improve the handling .
Use a W108 24 mm front sway bar with urethane link rod bushes and D bushes to stiffen the front.
You can lower the back end easily by leaving the centre spring off.

Get into the body with a heat gun and strip all the rust preventative off the underside and the insulation inside. It's a racecar not a limo so sound proffing is the last thing you need.
To repair that rear end, I would cut the back right off and weld in a new/secondhand one.

http://youtu.be/3HJ8j8JUZ1w

[strelnik]

Originally Posted by RobertFini

Hello, all!

I am considering the purchase of a W110 230 sedan from an estate for the purpose of building a vintage racer, but a few questions need to be answered first. The car is nearly rust free but it has some "condition issues" as they like to say on Antiques Roadshow: the previous owner banged it around and it has some serious dents in the quarter panels; the inspection sticker is dated 1994 and it looks like it's truly been sitting for 18 years - the seals are all leaking, the engine does not turn by hand, the interior is horribly stinky, and so on...

My questions are:
1) The executor of the estate claims it is a 1966 model year, but I need the exact(ish) production date to determine whether it has the earlier 105 hp motor or the later 120 hp motor. The VIN is 110.011-12-001470; can anyone tell me the production date or, more importantly, whether it has the more powerful engine?
2) Related to question 1, supposing it has the weaker engine, what is required to upgrade it to the more powerful version?
3) The car has a column-shifted automatic transmission, which is not exactly the most conducive to success for the type of driving I'll be doing; can anyone tell me how difficult it will be to swap in a floor-shifted manual transmission?

The price is right, but the cost of getting it home will likely exceed the purchase price as it's about 175 miles north of here. I need answers quickly, before the estate takes the only other offer they have on the table. Thanks in advance, y'all!

Best Regards,
Rob

Rob,

Contact Mr. Tom Hanson at the Classic center, his personal e-mail is halfviking@yahoo.com. Or just call the Classic center or send them an e-mail

[jackson101]

Sure wish you lived closer Rob, I've got a 64 220Sb parts car, manual trans, and a 67 230S (project my son has lost interest in), I would love to see them go away!