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  #1  
Old 08-01-2015, 09:57 PM
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W111 transmission swap

So I have a 1964 220b with an automatic transmission, and am considering options to replace it with a manual. I'm planning a resto-mod due to cost and limited value of the completed project. I'm simply looking to make it into a more engaging car to drive.

In switching, I understand that what is obviously needed is the tranny, clutch and linkage assemblies. However, what else would be needed? would I need a complete rear end to have the proper ratios, and would i need to replace/modify the driveshaft to fit up?

And which transmissions would be compatible? I would love a floor shifter option, and am not opposed to cutting the hole in the transmission well to accommodate the shifter. But the standard column shifter would be fine too.

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!
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  #2  
Old 08-03-2015, 12:01 PM
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Mercedes build philosophy would be to make a chassis that would accommodate either manual or auto transmission. I believe the W111 sedans were setup for column shifting automatic or manual, but have not seen a factory floor shifter in W111. The W111 coupe had floor shifter, but the chassis is different. Perhaps the W111 sedan can be modified for floor shifting?
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1962 220Sb ~ The Emerald Bullet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx6tN1W48_o
1957 Ponton 220S

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The Universe is Abundant ~ Life is GOOD!http://www.classiccarclock.com
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  #3  
Old 08-18-2015, 02:50 PM
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While most were on the column, floorshift manuals were availible on the Fintails. Depending on whether it's a manual columnshift or floorshift, some setups used different transmissions & linkages. You'll also need the pedal assy and clutch hydraulics. If you keep the shift on the column, you'll probably need a different column assy for the manual-shifter. And the column assys also differ depending on whether it's for manual steering or power assist
Best to try and find a donor-car to get everything you might need. Can't say about the driveshaft, but you won't need a different rear-end, though one with taller gearing would make for more relaxed highway cruising. But that opens a can-o-worms as those rear-ends were typically used on the later V8 models with rear disc-brakes, and a different rear-end ratio will need a matching speedometer, or your speed and mileage readings will be off.

Happy Motoring, Mark
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  #4  
Old 10-03-2015, 07:04 PM
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Thanks for the info guys! I haven't made progress towards this yet, but a repair is requiring me to remove the transmission. I may try to hunt down a donor car from a local junkyard to get everything that I need, and may sell the automatic to fund the project. I'll be sure to post as I make progress!
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  #5  
Old 10-04-2015, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant W View Post
In switching, I understand that what is obviously needed is the tranny, clutch and linkage assemblies. However, what else would be needed?
On the M180 engine the flywheel and crankshaft are balanced as a single unit. I think you need a flywheel for a manual transmission car but I don't know how you balance it with the crankshaft.
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  #6  
Old 10-05-2015, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ScooterABC View Post
On the M180 engine the flywheel and crankshaft are balanced as a single unit. I think you need a flywheel for a manual transmission car but I don't know how you balance it with the crankshaft.
That is a good question. M180 manual transmission flywheel is not that hard to come by. I have two spare flywheels.

How do you know whether it is balanced? How do you balance?

Btw, while you have the flywheel off changing the pilot bearing is cheap.

Another issue, there are variations on transmissions. One Fintail transmission has reverse light electrical switch on the transmission. The other Fintail transmission does not, the reverse light switch is located in the gear shift linkage. I don't know what the chassis number switchover was but the gear shift linkage reverse light switch came first then it was moved to the transmission case.
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1962 220Sb ~ The Emerald Bullet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx6tN1W48_o
1957 Ponton 220S

2001 S600 Daily Driver
The Universe is Abundant ~ Life is GOOD!http://www.classiccarclock.com
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  #7  
Old 10-05-2015, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffreyNMemphis View Post
That is a good question. M180 manual transmission flywheel is not that hard to come by. I have two spare flywheels.

How do you know whether it is balanced? How do you balance?
An M180 flywheel is very much NOT independently balanced. It is balanced with the crankshaft. I would assume swapping flywheels is deemed "close enough". But what you can NOT do is use an M180 manual transmission flywheel on an M130 engine, since the crank and flywheel on the M130 are independently balanced. I have heard that a machine shop that rebuilds engines can balance an M180 flywheel such that it is neutral (balanced) independently by doing a lot of metal removal. That's as far as I got with it.

I doubt that an M180 flywheel has any particular value.
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  #8  
Old 10-05-2015, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScooterABC View Post
On the M180 engine the flywheel and crankshaft are balanced as a single unit. I think you need a flywheel for a manual transmission car but I don't know how you balance it with the crankshaft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScooterABC View Post
An M180 flywheel is very much NOT independently balanced. It is balanced with the crankshaft. I would assume swapping flywheels is deemed "close enough". But what you can NOT do is use an M180 manual transmission flywheel on an M130 engine, since the crank and flywheel on the M130 are independently balanced. I have heard that a machine shop that rebuilds engines can balance an M180 flywheel such that it is neutral (balanced) independently by doing a lot of metal removal. That's as far as I got with it.

I doubt that an M180 flywheel has any particular value.
Re: Balancing of MB flywheels, both manual trans & auto trans

In the manufacturing process, all flywheels are neutrally balanced at the end of the machining steps. They are then delivered to engine assembly and build-up. In build-up a flywheel (and front hub) is mated to a crankshaft, and the unit is checked for balance. In many instances, but not all, metal may be removed from any part of the assembly, including the flywheel, to achieve the desired balance condition. As a consequence, many flywheels will be drilled to remove metal such that the flywheel, checked alone, will no longer be neutrally balanced. It is for this reason that Mother Benz specifies that all replacement flywheels be matched for balance/imbalance to the original condition. The shop manuals illustrate the tool that can be used, and the procedure for matching.

Edit: In the following post (#9) Scooter takes umbrage with the above statements, and correctly so. The first two engines in the M180 series, the M180 and the M127, were four-main bearing engines, the crankshafts had very little internal counter-weighting, and the flywheel and the front hub carried substantial cast-on counter weights. Going into build-up those three pieces were individually decidedly unbalanced. When combined as a unit, and given a final touch-up balance, they were then a balanced crankshaft assembly.
As described above, the M129/114/130 seven-main bearing engines have internally balanced cranks, and essentially neutral flywheels and front hubs, that are then adjusted in the final crankshaft assembly. This process is also common to the four- and five-cylinder engines.


Should anyone wish the use of the balancing tool I have one for loan or purchase.

Last edited by Frank Reiner; 10-06-2015 at 08:14 PM.
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  #9  
Old 10-05-2015, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Reiner View Post
Re: Balancing of MB flywheels, both manual trans & auto trans

In the manufacturing process, all flywheels are neutrally balanced at the end of the machining steps. They are then delivered to engine assembly and build-up. In build-up a flywheel (and front hub) is mated to a crankshaft, and the unit is checked for balance. In many instances, but not all, metal may be removed from any part of the assembly, including the flywheel, to achieve the desired balance condition. As a consequence, many flywheels will be drilled to remove metal such that the flywheel, checked alone, will no longer be neutrally balanced. It is for this reason that Mother Benz specifies that all replacement flywheels be matched for balance/imbalance to the original condition. The shop manuals illustrate the tool that can be used, and the procedure for matching.
I would be happy to be wrong, but I believe you to be completely incorrect when comparing a manual transmission M180 flywheel and a manual transmission M130 flywheel. Everything I've read and been told say that the M180 is balanced with the flywheel and crankshaft as a single unit, and that on the M130 they are independently (neutrally) balanced. If you look at an M180 flywheel from a manual transmission car it is INCREDIBLY not balanced. It's not like a little adjusting or drilling was done, it is like it was cast very much out of balance.
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  #10  
Old 10-05-2015, 02:44 PM
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[QUOTE=ScooterABC;3525819]An M180 flywheel is very much NOT independently balanced. It is balanced with the crankshaft. I would assume swapping flywheels is deemed "close enough". But what you can NOT do is use an M180 manual transmission flywheel on an M130 engine, since the crank and flywheel on the M130 are independently balanced. I have heard that a machine shop that rebuilds engines can balance an M180 flywheel such that it is neutral (balanced) independently by doing a lot of metal removal. That's as far as I got with it.
QUOTE]

My experience bears toward your assertion regarding flywheel interchangeability from M180 to M130. When I did my engine swap from M180 to M130, I changed the flywheel to one from a manual transmission M130. The M130 block uses a different sized stretch bolt that is expensive ($35.00 each times six). I did not do any special machine shop service to balance anything, maybe I should have?
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1962 220Sb ~ The Emerald Bullet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx6tN1W48_o
1957 Ponton 220S

2001 S600 Daily Driver
The Universe is Abundant ~ Life is GOOD!http://www.classiccarclock.com
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  #11  
Old 10-05-2015, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyNMemphis View Post
My experience bears toward your assertion regarding flywheel interchangeability from M180 to M130. When I did my engine swap from M180 to M130, I changed the flywheel to one from a manual transmission M130. The M130 block uses a different sized stretch bolt that is expensive ($35.00 each times six). I did not do any special machine shop service to balance anything, maybe I should have?
No, you did it correctly. The M130 manual flywheel that you used was already correctly balanced (unless something strange happened to it. If you had have used an M180 flywheel the engine would have been destroyed by being SOOO out of balance with the M130 engine. The M130 expects each to be independently balanced, the M180 engine expects to be balanced with crank and flywheel as a single unit, with neither being in balance by themselves. And yes, the bolts are different. Having said that, finding a manual transmission M130 flywheel is not easy to do in the US.
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  #12  
Old 10-06-2015, 08:17 PM
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This has been inserted in Post #8; the Scootman has it right, I stand corrected.

Edit: In the following post (#9) Scooter takes umbrage with the above statements, and correctly so. The first two engines in the M180 series, the M180 and the M127, were four-main bearing engines, the crankshafts had very little internal counter-weighting, and the flywheel and the front hub carried substantial cast-on counter weights. Going into build-up those three pieces were individually decidedly unbalanced. When combined as a unit, and given a final touch-up balance, they were then a balanced crankshaft assembly.
As described above, the M129/114/130 seven-main bearing engines have internally balanced cranks, and essentially neutral flywheels and front hubs, that are then adjusted in the final crankshaft assembly. This process is also common to the four- and five-cylinder engines.
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