1960? 220s - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

KellyCox · #1 12-02-2015, 02:36 PM

My old man died last May and left a bunch of vehicles around the ranch, where my brother lives now. There are two old Mercedes, one is a 1970 220 diesel in poor condition and a 1960? 220s in better condition. I really like old Mercedes' because my 1st car was a 1960 190D ponton.

So far we can't find keys for either of them. The 220s has CA plates but the DMV has no history of it, so we can fairly easily get a new title, and register it if we want. It hasn't run in years, I have no idea how difficult it would be to get it started and running. Next time I'm over there I'll write down the VIN and post it here, to see if you all can help me figure out the model year. From what I've read online there should be an "06" in the later part of the VIN if it is a 1960, or a "95" if it is a 1959, but there are no numbers like that.

The 1970 diesel was registered in South Dakota so I have to contact the DMV there and see what it takes to get a replacement title. Someone I talked to yesterday said that diesel sold in CA in the early 1980's did a lot of damage to diesel engines, so I'm concerned about that. I guess once I get it running, I'll know there's a problem if it blows a lot of white smoke every time I start it. That's what eventually happened to my old 190D.

I'll post pics of the cars if anyone is interested, but for now I'm just introducing myself and seeing if anyone has advice for getting the 220s running.

JeffreyNMemphis · #2 12-03-2015, 01:14 PM

Hello Kelly,

Welcome!

I own 3 W111 sedans. Two are restoration cars to keep and the other a parts car. There is a not of information available on this forum and good people who share their experience and wisdom.
Restoring a Fintail sedan requires commitment. Parts are not terribly expensive if you know where to look.

We love pictures! Can't wait to see your car. The title will have the date of mfg. Take a picture of the plate on the radiator support left of the hood latch. The plate will have the VIN that will likely start with 111012-10-XXXXXX.

Best regards,

Jeffrey

ScooterABC · #3 12-03-2015, 07:05 PM

Hi Kelly -

Quote:

Originally Posted by KellyCox

My old man died last May and left a bunch of vehicles around the ranch, where my brother lives now. There are two old Mercedes, one is a 1970 220 diesel in poor condition and a 1960? 220s in better condition. I really like old Mercedes' because my 1st car was a 1960 190D ponton.

So far we can't find keys for either of them. The 220s has CA plates but the DMV has no history of it, so we can fairly easily get a new title, and register it if we want. It hasn't run in years, I have no idea how difficult it would be to get it started and running.

Would it be correct to assume you can't find the CA title for the 220S? If that is the case, I don't know how you are going to register a car that is out of the DMV system (or for that matter if you even want to). You need to have something that shows proof of ownership, or else you will have to do a lien sale to yourself.

What part of California are the cars in? It will greatly simplify your life if you can find the titles for both of the cars. That is much more important than finding the keys. Replacement keys are generally easy to get.

Idle · #4 12-04-2015, 03:14 PM

You can talk to the dealer about the key set but you will need proof of ownership. You can also get all the documents from the Classic Center but again you need proof of ownership.

I think, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, but there are three keys to these cars. Ignition, doors and trunk, and glove box. The glove box one was an option on the lower cars so your diesel might not have one.

You can also, if you just want to work on them, remove the ignition assembly and get to the switch on the end of it. Once you have pulled the assembly out the switch is easy to get to. With the right wiring diagram you can just bypass the key part of the assembly.

Before hitting the starter on either of them put a socket on the bolt on the end of the crank, inside where the pulley is mounted, and see if the engine is free. If you can't get it to turn over by hand then you don't want to burn out the starter or rip teeth off your flywheel by engaging the starter. Turn clockwise, and you will likely need to do this from under the car as that fan is right up there next to the radiator and makes getting in there tough.

KellyCox · #5 12-07-2015, 01:17 PM

Here are some pictures of the car and the VIN plates. I can get a title fairly cheaply, since the CA DMV has no record of the car. My sister is the executor of the estate and all she has to do is fill out a form about lost documents and we can get another title. Once I do that I'll pursue getting keys.

As you can see the body is pretty straight, there is a dent in the driver's side door though. So from that VIN plate, what number do I put on my DMV paperwork and what year is the car?

686point3 · #6 12-07-2015, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KellyCox

My old man died last May and left a bunch of vehicles around the ranch, where my brother lives now. There are two old Mercedes, one is a 1970 220 diesel in poor condition and a 1960? 220s in better condition. I really like old Mercedes' because my 1st car was a 1960 190D ponton.

So far we can't find keys for either of them. The 220s has CA plates but the DMV has no history of it, so we can fairly easily get a new title, and register it if we want. It hasn't run in years, I have no idea how difficult it would be to get it started and running. Next time I'm over there I'll write down the VIN and post it here, to see if you all can help me figure out the model year. From what I've read online there should be an "06" in the later part of the VIN if it is a 1960, or a "95" if it is a 1959, but there are no numbers like that.

The 1970 diesel was registered in South Dakota so I have to contact the DMV there and see what it takes to get a replacement title. Someone I talked to yesterday said that diesel sold in CA in the early 1980's did a lot of damage to diesel engines, so I'm concerned about that. I guess once I get it running, I'll know there's a problem if it blows a lot of white smoke every time I start it. That's what eventually happened to my old 190D.

I'll post pics of the cars if anyone is interested, but for now I'm just introducing myself and seeing if anyone has advice for getting the 220s running.

First off:
Welcome here.

Both cars are interesting for the right people.

1. Identification is easy IF you have the correct model year (usually found on US model VIN tags after the late sixties), but most of all the exact model. And not always is that enough as follow up models have different bodies etc.

The 1970 220D was also available in a w123 Chassis (Europe mostly, not US).
The 1960 (?) could be a 'Ponton' or a 'Finnie'.
They are completely different bodies, while (at least early Finnies) are technically almost identical.

Re: VIN
220S :
that '06' thing is incorrect.
1960 is the cut-off year where VIN were handled differently.
While you were correct for the 1959 (as on your old 190D) atarting in 1960 the VIN would be 6 digits for the Model, 2 digits for the transmission (or steering side), and 6 digits for the running PRODUCED number (first car 220Sb in 1959 would then be 111 012 10 000001, last one in 1965 would be something like 111 012 12 160xxx).
IF your car is a 'round body' or known as 'Ponton' like your 190D(a/b)
all this does not apply.
On Pontons however (until 1960) the year was in the VIN
Example : 180 010 N 9506789 (which would be a '59 (+..95..) 220S(a) (180 010).
.
.
.... here I am writing away and there were follow up posts.

After the photo it's clear you have a 'Finnie' W111.
The VIN tells you it's car number 109573 off the assembly line for this model (220Sb(!)), it's a four speed (...-10-...).
The number puts it roughly in the last third of production, maybe 1963 (to be exact I would have to check the records).
In that year there were several (important) changes in this model. What they call mid run model upgrades).
Brakes went from a treacherous single circuit to double circuit brakes (a lot safer) and from drums to discs in the front.
The carburetors went from Dual-Solexes with Manual choke to Double-Zenith with automatic choke.
Interior changes were on door panels, and seat cover changes (mostly MBtex surface was different).
Probably more smaller changes.

I am in California also, if that helps.

Good Luck.
Alex

What ever you do: it would help if you poured a few table spoons of Marvel Mystery oil in every cylinder (several days) before trying to start it.

KellyCox · #7 12-07-2015, 01:50 PM

Thanks, but I posted pics, the car is a finny. I know the difference since my 1st car was a ponton model.

KellyCox · #8 12-07-2015, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idle

You can talk to the dealer about the key set but you will need proof of ownership. You can also get all the documents from the Classic Center but again you need proof of ownership.

I think, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, but there are three keys to these cars. Ignition, doors and trunk, and glove box. The glove box one was an option on the lower cars so your diesel might not have one

I can easily get a title to the car. So you are saying that if I do have the title I can get the key patterns to give to a locksmith? What is the Classic Center?

686point3 · #9 12-07-2015, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KellyCox

I can easily get a title to the car. So you are saying that if I do have the title I can get the key patterns to give to a locksmith? What is the Classic Center?

Mercedes Benz has the Classic Center in Irvine CA., a factory extension.
These guys help sourcing parts and can restore/repair your car, if you want (and can afford it).
If you have a title in your name they can most likely still order you keys (in Germany), if they (key blanks) are still available.
You can also get the key code(s), and have (an old) locksmith look them up and cut keys from,( IF THEY CAN GET OR HAVE THE RIGHT KEY BLANKS FOR THIS CAR).

There are three keys
1. (big) Ignition key
2. small door key (fits lockable gas cap, if you have one)
3. medium (and longer) key for the trunk, that also works on the glove box door.

Good Luck

Obviously you would know the difference between the two cars, if they were in fact different.
Your dad's 220 S does have however significant differences from your 190D.
I didn't know what you had until I saw the photos. ...is all.

KellyCox · #10 12-07-2015, 04:29 PM

Doing a bit more reading, and still very unclear on what constitutes a VIN that I would provide to the DMV. I gather there is also a chassis number down near the generator area, right?

I want to establish the year before I attempt to get a title, and I also need to give the DMV the right VIN.

I'll ask my brother to pour some miracle oil down in the cylinders.

JeffreyNMemphis · #11 12-07-2015, 05:13 PM

Hi Kelly,

Your picture number 3 shows the 14 digit VIN at top right.

I paid $120 for two sets of keys (six keys) from a locksmith in Texas with codes provided on my vehicle data card. If you have the title in your name, the Mercedes Benz Classic in Irvine can provide a data card with build information including key codes.

686point3 · #12 12-07-2015, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KellyCox

Doing a bit more reading, and still very unclear on what constitutes a VIN that I would provide to the DMV. I gather there is also a chassis number down near the generator area, right?

I want to establish the year before I attempt to get a title, and I also need to give the DMV the right VIN.

I'll ask my brother to pour some miracle oil down in the cylinders.

111 012 10 109573

should be the same on that tag in front of the radiator and stamped in Frame rail right under the Air cleaner canister.
Year should be 1963.