Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Vintage Mercedes Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-03-2016, 05:06 PM
rwd4evr's Avatar
Master hull craftsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: delaware
Posts: 601
M116/117 ENGINE BLUEPRINTS TECHNICAL INFO

Im trying to find technical data or blueprints on the Mercedes M116 and M117 engines. All critical dimensions including rod length piston compression height, ring end gaps, bearing tolerances and sizes etc. For rebuilding and modifying purposes. Can anyone tell me if this information is in the factory service manual's? I don't mind paying for Service manuals but I don't have the information I'm looking for is not in there.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-03-2016, 10:54 PM
Tony H's Avatar
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bandon, Oregon
Posts: 1,050
There are some manuals on the EPC site-I will take a look
__________________
Tony H
111 280SE 3.5 Coupe
Manual transmission

Past cars:
Porsche 914 2.0
'64 Jaguar XKE Roadster
'57 Oval Window VW
'71 Toyota Hilux-Dad bought new
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-03-2016, 10:57 PM
Tony H's Avatar
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bandon, Oregon
Posts: 1,050
This should get you what you are looking for but it takes some digging
Model 107
__________________
Tony H
111 280SE 3.5 Coupe
Manual transmission

Past cars:
Porsche 914 2.0
'64 Jaguar XKE Roadster
'57 Oval Window VW
'71 Toyota Hilux-Dad bought new
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-05-2016, 03:03 PM
rwd4evr's Avatar
Master hull craftsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: delaware
Posts: 601
That link isn't working. It looked like it was going to the Epc start key? I couldn't find what i wanted there, I have Epc access. Where did you think I could find that info in there? I know you are pretty intimately familiar with these motors, basically I'm trying to figure out if I can build a low deck(m116 4.2) alloy block with the short stroke 78.9 mm crank and a 5.0 96.5 bore engine, would come out to 4.6 and have an excellent bore to stroke ratio for high rpm turbo charged use. I don't know if that block can handle a 2.5 or 3mm overbore at this point but I'm trying to see if any combination of off the shelf parts would make it work. I did find a site with piston compression heights and wrist pin sizes but no rod lengths( infopart.org ), Epc part numbers for one over bore found most Pistons. I did find rod lengths on the 500e board but don't know they are accurate for sure. I also found deck heights listed but conflicting information. Do you know what they (m116/117) are?My original m119 plans don't look to good with steering box exhaust interference issues. Those 8 exhaust ports would not be fun to build headers for.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-05-2016, 04:53 PM
dkveuro's Avatar
Sword of Damocles
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Here an' there.
Posts: 2,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwd4evr View Post
............. I'm trying to figure out if I can build a low deck(m116 4.2) alloy block with the short stroke 78.9 mm crank and a 5.0 96.5 bore engine, would come out to 4.6 and have an excellent bore to stroke ratio for high rpm turbo charged use.............. .
These blocks have to be bored under size and then honed to size to leave the silicon embedded in the casting, proud of the alloy cylinder walls for the piston rings to ride on.

Shortening the block will reduce or even break through the gasket deck and even if do able, the deck will be very weak.

Would not an alternative engine with the stroke/bore your looking for, be a more durable undertaking ?


.
__________________
[http://languageandgrammar.com/2008/01/14/youve-got-problems-not-issues/ ]

"A liberal is someone who feels they owe a great debt to their fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money."
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-05-2016, 06:30 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,378
Or you can machine out the cylinders all together and use liners ( Supplied by Darton and others ) . This is done on some hot Japanese 4 cylinder cars.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-06-2016, 01:31 AM
Tony H's Avatar
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bandon, Oregon
Posts: 1,050
I tried the link again and it goes to the 107 Service Manual Library which covers the 3.8, 4.5 and 5.6 engines-don't know why it's not working. I have a new computer and lost my bookmarks so I just navigated there from the Star tekinfo page to MB workshop resources then to the 107 library. That seems to have the most M116/M117 manuals. I'm really only familiar with the tall block engines as it specifically relates to my project.
__________________
Tony H
111 280SE 3.5 Coupe
Manual transmission

Past cars:
Porsche 914 2.0
'64 Jaguar XKE Roadster
'57 Oval Window VW
'71 Toyota Hilux-Dad bought new
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-06-2016, 01:45 PM
Graham's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwd4evr View Post
Im trying to find technical data or blueprints on the Mercedes M116 and M117 engines. All critical dimensions including rod length piston compression height, ring end gaps, bearing tolerances and sizes etc. For rebuilding and modifying purposes. Can anyone tell me if this information is in the factory service manual's? I don't mind paying for Service manuals but I don't have the information I'm looking for is not in there.
There is a Technical Data Manual. I have one for the 1972 model. I am away from home at present (and will be for some time), but it probably has most of what you need. This is not the same as the engine service manual available on Startek. It is a small handbook. Something like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mercedes-Benz-Technical-Data-Booklet-December-1978-/381252063113?hash=item58c464cf89:g:HRgAAOSwBahVRCwF&vxp=mtr
__________________
Graham
85 300D,72 350SL, 98 E320, Outback 2.5
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-06-2016, 03:34 PM
rwd4evr's Avatar
Master hull craftsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: delaware
Posts: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkveuro View Post
These blocks have to be bored under size and then honed to size to leave the silicon embedded in the casting, proud of the alloy cylinder walls for the piston rings to ride on.

Shortening the block will reduce or even break through the gasket deck and even if do able, the deck will be very weak.

Would not an alternative engine with the stroke/bore your looking for, be a more durable undertaking ?


.
I wasn't saying I would cut the deck, the m116 is already a low deck m117. 29mm lower from what I have found znd believe to be correct. Not certain though. I want a small displacement large bore so I can use 5.6 heads with the big valves for a high rpm engine. I guess it would make more sense to de stroke a 5.0 or 5.6 block but I am a little concerned about hood clearance on my 220b six cylinder narrow grill car. Low deck would help.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-06-2016, 03:42 PM
rwd4evr's Avatar
Master hull craftsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: delaware
Posts: 601
Do you have a 5.0 liter and 5.6 liter rod to compare and measure tony? From what I have found it looks like they change the wrist pin size throughout the different displacements. I remember reading your 5.6 iron thread awhile back, which heads did you find were best?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-07-2016, 11:39 PM
Tony H's Avatar
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bandon, Oregon
Posts: 1,050
4.5 and 5.6 have the same wrist pin OD. Pretty sure all the M116/117 have the same wrist pin OD. I have some 4.5 and 5.6 rods I will check tomorrow-no 5.0-I think the tall block rods are the same length but the longer stroke 5.6 rods have a smaller big end. The 5.6 pistons have a shorter compression height due to the longer stroke. As far as my project I am going with the 5.6 heads. They have pretty large chambers so if you use them on a small displacement engine it will lower the CR.
__________________
Tony H
111 280SE 3.5 Coupe
Manual transmission

Past cars:
Porsche 914 2.0
'64 Jaguar XKE Roadster
'57 Oval Window VW
'71 Toyota Hilux-Dad bought new
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-08-2016, 01:12 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Modesto CA
Posts: 2,816
A bit of M116/117 data:

Block height
M116 --- 215.85-216.0 (Minimum after decking - 215.65) mm
M117 --- 244.85-245.0 (Minimum ---------------- 244.65) mm

Rod length
M116 --- 137.95-138.05 mm
M117 --- 154.45-154.55 mm

Rod journal & wrist pin
Aluminum Block
M116(Europe) ------------ 52/26 mm
M116(USA, AUS, Japan) - 48/23 "
M117(Europe) ------------ 52/26 "
M117(USA, etc.)---------- 48/23 "
Iron block
M116/117 ---------------- 52/26 "

Combustion chamber
Aluminum block
M116 -------------- 44.5 - 45.5 cc
M117 -------------- 55.5 - 56.5 cc
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-09-2016, 06:29 PM
rwd4evr's Avatar
Master hull craftsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: delaware
Posts: 601
So according to all the info I've gathered here, this is the only option I would have with off the shelf(like I could find them anyway)parts.96.5 x 71.8 bore x stroke is 4.2 liters. Euro 3.8 block, crank ,rods. 71.8 stroke. 5.6 euro pistons 96.5 bore. So half of the stroke(35.9) plus rod(138) plus piston compression height (43.15) equals 217.05. M116 deck is 216 so 1mm out of the hole would have to be shaved off unless the 5.6 heads have a recess in them.
All that would have to be balanced and compression ratio calculated, Pistons milled and possibly fly cut for valve clearance. It surely would be a screamer with a 1.344 bore to stroke ratio but the cost to build over a stock 4.2 would be crazy unless I had the parts around already. If I could use some U.S. Parts it would be better but none are right. Maybe some day or with some custom parts.
I think it would be money better spent on some head work and the best of the cams available, boost and megasquirt. maybe o-ring the head for boost. I don't know how much boost an m116 can handle, only found one m117 twin turbo and not a lot of details on it.

Last edited by rwd4evr; 02-09-2016 at 07:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-10-2016, 09:57 AM
Tomguy's Avatar
Vintage Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: near Scranton, PA
Posts: 5,176
You don't need a "High" revving engine to take advantage of boost. Personally, I'd prefer supercharging a 5.6 (and trying to find the parts from an AMG or at least how AMG did it to make it a 6.0) but if you're really worried about the ~1" extra deck height (which would make the engine overall likely .75" taller and 1.25" wider), then do it on a 4.2. You could even use an iron block m116 or m117 like Tony is for his coupe, and bore/stroke it out... take a 3.5 block and make it a 4.6 or whatever it'd work out to be with the right rods, pistons, etc; then you don't need to worry about the aluminum block wall integrity (losing the silicate structure) or adding liners. Plus in theory, a cast block should be able to take boost better.

Since you want the turbo route you need to think if 1 "Big" turbo or 2 "Small" turbos are the route to go. It also depends where you're putting them. If you think the engine bay is tight with the m116 and an m117 won't fit, your hand will be forced the single turbo route. Diesel turbo engines don't have huge redlines - for example, the Cummins ISX redlines at 2000 RPMs. The "EcoDiesel" 3.0 V6 from FCA, supposedly one of the best consumer light-duty diesels (At least per Ward's best engines) has a 4800 redline (much higher but still low compared to V6 GAS engines). To throw another wrench in there, you can use a variable vane turbo from one of any dozen modern turbo vehicles (Say an old Ford 6.0 Diesel). Benefit is obvious, tiny surface area for super-fast spoolups at idle / low RPMs and massive area for huge boost at higher RPMs.

As far as lowering compression ratio, I do wonder why. For example the EcoBoost engines are 10.0:1. You should be able, using a modern EFI setup and spark control, to get a well-tuned engine running with a compression ratio of 9.5:1 with no issues on 91 octane. You may need to lower to 9.0:1 if you want to run on 87, but IDK without testing myself. The boost controller can just back of boost if there's too much knocking (you can have multiple tunes).
__________________
Current:
2018 Chrysler Pacifica Limited
1999 Chrysler 300M - 214,141+ miles

Previous:
1972 280SE 4.5
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited "Hefe", 1992 Jeep Cherokee Laredo "Jeepy", 2006 Charger R/T "Hemi"
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-10-2016, 08:53 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,378
What sort of boost pressure does the eco boost use? I'd think it is just a few PSI and probably limited time.

Ford spent millions developing the FI system so I doubt a home made system will perform the same.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page