High Performance M130

[bracurrie]

From the All Time Stars site that markets vintage MBs for MB classic center the following was in the history of model section on a W108. " A high-performance version of the 170 hp injection engine was not only installed in the 280 SL, but was also used in the 300 SEL as from January 1968,"
Does anyone know the details of the high performance M130?
Brad

[rwd4evr]

No I don't know specifics but I do recall reading that it made more power and was way cheaper to produce and maintain than the big six from the early 300sel and sl. Probably a different cam and Piston.

[fonzi]

You should be able to simply go into the EPC for the m130 and get all the 130.xxx numbers and determine where each was used. If the 4th-6th digits used for the w109 are different than the ones used for the injected w108, then you probably know there's something different for sure. I would. It expect the numbers to be the same as the w113 m130 because I believe the exhaust manifolds are under the engine section in the EPC. I don't have access to the EPC right now.


Edit: it is possible for the same engine numbers to be used with different cams and pistons. So even if the w108 and w109 cars used the same engine number, it doesn't mean that different pistons and cams aren't used.

[rwd4evr]

Right. You have to go through the part numbers for the engine in it's chassis. There will probably be "with option bla bla bla" for the cam or piston. I know all the early d-jet 3.5 and 4.5 v8 ran the same can with different pistons for compession changes.
It's very likely a In line six high compression version. The carbs are plenty big for air flow. It's almost a m110 dohc at that point.

[bracurrie]

Originally Posted by fonzi

You should be able to simply go into the EPC for the m130 and get all the 130.xxx numbers and determine where each was used. If the 4th-6th digits used for the w109 are different than the ones used for the injected w108, then you probably know there's something different for sure. I would. It expect the numbers to be the same as the w113 m130 because I believe the exhaust manifolds are under the engine section in the EPC. I don't have access to the EPC right now.


Edit: it is possible for the same engine numbers to be used with different cams and pistons. So even if the w108 and w109 cars used the same engine number, it doesn't mean that different pistons and cams aren't used.

What befuddles me is that when you run down each M130 E variant in the EPC you find a different injection pump, cylinder head and piston for the low compression 130.984 but the other three are identical. The distributors, cams, and injection pumps indicate identical part numbers across all four MFI variants.
Of course I may be misreading EPC.

[DieselPaul]

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=13742.0;wap2

Could be the difference in the two styles of heads for the 280 engines.

[Frank Reiner]

High Performance M130 ?

While perhaps not quite in the category of an oxymoron, the OP's question might be addressed by in turn asking, compared to what?

The M130, and the M110, in their highest rated production versions, produce about 60-65 HP/Liter.

USAC Midget and Sprint Car engines (on methanol), and NASCAR Cup engines (race gasoline), produce about 130-135 HP/Liter.

[fonzi]

108.019 280sel m130.980 (no options I see, whether US or Euro)

109.016 300sel m130.981 (no options I see, whether US or Euro).

So the engine for the 109 is different than the 108, but could it be a provision for the air suspension?

109.016 euro camshaft:
180.051.08.35 up to engine: ???
180.051.09.35 as of ???? Replaced by:
114.051.02.01

109.016 US Camshaft:
180.051.08.35 up to...
114.051.05.01 as of...

108.019 280sel US camshaft:
180.051.08.35 up to: ???
114.051.05.01 as of: ???

108.019 280sel euro camshaft:
180.051.08.35 up to engine 108
(No as of!)



Both use the 180.051.08.35 at one point in time. It looks like only about 311 130.981 engines use that camshaft. So many the later 130.981 did have a different camshaft to help it get out of its own way or something.

Now for the w113 camshaft:
US version:
180.051.08.35 up to 130.983.004596
114.051.05.01 as of...

Euro 280sl (130.983)
180.051.09.35 up to...
114.051.02.01 as of...


I don't know. It looks more like a difference between US and Euro than any differences between m130 pagoda + 300sel and 280sel.






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[bracurrie]

Originally Posted by Frank Reiner

High Performance M130 ?

While perhaps not quite in the category of an oxymoron, the OP's question might be addressed by in turn asking, compared to what?

The M130, and the M110, in their highest rated production versions, produce about 60-65 HP/Liter.

USAC Midget and Sprint Car engines (on methanol), and NASCAR Cup engines (race gasoline), produce about 130-135 HP/Liter.

I started down this rabbit hole based on what I thought at the time was a need to rebuild my M130 MFI engine. I had heard about the hotter cam/richer mixture variant that produced 170 HP versus 160 Hp. Thought I would research what else was different such as pistons, heads, distributors and maybe injection pumps. It turns out that the variants of the M130 E are numbered in sequence from 980, 981, 983 and 984. 984 is the low compression varient 981 and 983 are the hot cam variants, but what happened to 982? I love a mystery.

[fonzi]

Originally Posted by bracurrie

I started down this rabbit hole based on what I thought at the time was a need to rebuild my M130 MFI engine. I had heard about the hotter cam/richer mixture variant that produced 170 HP versus 160 Hp. Thought I would research what else was different such as pistons, heads, distributors and maybe injection pumps. It turns out that the variants of the M130 E are numbered in sequence from 980, 981, 983 and 984. 984 is the low compression varient 981 and 983 are the hot cam variants, but what happened to 982? I love a mystery.

I would not expect the engine number to denote the horsepower, but rather to denote the model of the car it went into. The same engine numbers are used for US Spec 450sl cars with 160-190 hp, as the Euro spec 450sl cars with approximately 225 hp. When you select "North America" or "Europe" in the EPC, the parts used change. For example, the whole rear suspension on a European 450sl is different with the anti-squat/anti-dive rear end with aluminum control arms. The North American model has standard stamped steel control arms. The pistons in the European engine with the same number as the US engine just give you a different part number in the EPC. It would make sense that they gave them different motor numbers, but they simply didn't. In order to tell if a 4.5 of Euro or US, I put a scope in the spark plug holes to check the shape of the pistons.


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[JMela]

You might reach out to Joe Alexander over at the sl113.org board. He's done a lot of research over the years on these motors and might have some real answers on what can and can't be done.

[DieselPaul]

Originally Posted by JMela

You might reach out to Joe Alexander over at the sl113.org board. He's done a lot of research over the years on these motors and might have some real answers on what can and can't be done.

He has an account on this forum as well JA17. He is who wrote the quote I linked to.

Joe is the M127/129/130 master. He rallied M130 swapped W114s for a very long time and has restored more Pagodas than most of us have ever seen. He set up my 280SL after I rebuilt the head. (as I'm sure JMela knows)

[bracurrie]

Originally Posted by DieselPaul

He has an account on this forum as well JA17. He is who wrote the quote I linked to.

Joe is the M127/129/130 master. He rallied M130 swapped W114s for a very long time and has restored more Pagodas than most of us have ever seen. He set up my 280SL after I rebuilt the head. (as I'm sure JMela knows)

Thanks! I had traded information with Joe on something else and you are correct he does know a great deal. But I am still unsure about some details. He pointed me to Metric Motors. They are grounded by what they can get done and my research isn't something I want to burden them with.
Brad

[JMela]

I had looked into getting a custom cam made replicating the specs of the "09" cam, which is the 'hot' one, I think.

Seemed do-able but I wasn't sure if it would make any difference with a big, heavy 108.

[bracurrie]

Originally Posted by JMela

I had looked into getting a custom cam made replicating the specs of the "09" cam, which is the 'hot' one, I think.

Seemed do-able but I wasn't sure if it would make any difference with a big, heavy 108.

I think it would make a difference, but I have been told that most of the gain was at higher RPM. Also, I have not been able to tell what other parts are needed to replicate the 981 variant.