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  #1  
Old 10-01-2017, 09:11 PM
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Fintail M180 No Start

Hi all wondering if anyone has some thoughts on my '67 230S not starting.

My Fintail arrived off the shipper's truck not running. I've only had limited time, and tools as the car isn't at my garage to troubleshoot.

What I did quickly discover however, is that with the carb cover (for lack of a better word) off, the carbs are shooting a mist of fuel about a foot and half into the air in two quick bursts.

Surely that can't be normal for these cars right?

Any thoughts would be appreciated, while I've owned many an old car I'm a complete vintage Mercedes noob.

I'm hoping to dig into this further tomorrow, I'll fill in any discoveries as I make them.
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  #2  
Old 10-01-2017, 09:23 PM
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1967 - so is that Zenith or Solex? I think Zenith. Do you mean you took the cover off the carbs? Not the air cleaner, but the actual cast part of the carbs that you would have to remove screws to get to? If you did that I think you would see float chambers. Post a pic of what you see.

I'm guessing that the car cranks. Do you know when the oil / fluids were last changed? And do you know if it has old gas in it (does it smell?)

cheers
Scott
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  #3  
Old 10-01-2017, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScooterABC View Post
1967 - so is that Zenith or Solex? I think Zenith. Do you mean you took the cover off the carbs? Not the air cleaner, but the actual cast part of the carbs that you would have to remove screws to get to? If you did that I think you would see float chambers. Post a pic of what you see.

I'm guessing that the car cranks. Do you know when the oil / fluids were last changed? And do you know if it has old gas in it (does it smell?)

cheers
Scott
I'll have to confirm the carb manufacturer tomorrow.

Not the cleaner but the black cover that affixes with two screws.

Car cranks, and was driven without trouble previous to shipping. The previous owner is an astute car guy so the fluids should be good, but of course I have no confirmation. I'll check quality tomorrow and report back.

I'll definitely post up pics tomorrow.

Thanks a ton for getting involved!
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  #4  
Old 10-01-2017, 10:02 PM
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When you say the black cover I think you are talking about the bottom half of the round air cleaner container. Is that correct? If so, then gas should not squirt upwards. That is strange.

Fintails are notorious for having the gas drain out of the carbs (backwards) and needing to be cranked for a long time. But if you are getting gas squirts from the accelerator pump then the carbs are not empty. Loose distributor center wire? Secret kill switch?

cheers
Scott
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  #5  
Old 10-01-2017, 10:35 PM
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Not just gas squirts a powerful mist!
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  #6  
Old 10-02-2017, 07:43 AM
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It sounds like it may have jumped time. It is easy to check. Remove the valve cover and turn the motor over clockwise by hand until it is at TDC on the crank. The notch on the cam bolt washer should line up with the mark on the pedestal. The rotor should point to #1 plug wire. There is a notch on the distributor for #1. Another possibility is stuck valves. A backfire can cause the jumped time if the chain is loose.
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  #7  
Old 10-02-2017, 09:04 PM
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You only need air, fuel and fire to run that thing.

Air in this case would mean compression but let's assume you have that since it was running before.

You're getting fuel but we still don't understand why it's spraying upward in a massive mist. Please post a picture.

Fire - have you checked for spark?
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  #8  
Old 10-02-2017, 09:39 PM
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They are Zenith carbs.

I haven't check for spark, partly because of time and mostly because I'm focussed (admittedly perhaps tunnel vision at play) on that fuel mist. This is my first time linking to Google Photos please let me know if it doesn't work.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/K7CBo4dftA2lGiUd2
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  #9  
Old 10-02-2017, 10:02 PM
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The trouble is in your floats or needles. Perhaps both.

The needle is not dropping into the seat so when you crank the engine and the fuel pump comes on you are getting full pressure in your carb. And the fuel is then shooting up through a vent tube.

Try pulling the top plates off your carbs and cleaning out the bowls. Clean the needle or just replace it; I don't think they are expensive. Also clean out the seat or replace it. You can usually but the needle and seat as a package but on these carbs you might have to buy an entire rebuild kit to get just the needle and seat.

This is normally found after a car has been sitting and the gas in the bowl has jelled a bit.
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  #10  
Old 10-02-2017, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idle View Post
The trouble is in your floats or needles. Perhaps both.

The needle is not dropping into the seat so when you crank the engine and the fuel pump comes on you are getting full pressure in your carb. And the fuel is then shooting up through a vent tube.

Try pulling the top plates off your carbs and cleaning out the bowls. Clean the needle or just replace it; I don't think they are expensive. Also clean out the seat or replace it. You can usually but the needle and seat as a package but on these carbs you might have to buy an entire rebuild kit to get just the needle and seat.

This is normally found after a car has been sitting and the gas in the bowl has jelled a bit.
Thanks for the input!! What is our (can I say that yet?) go to resource for these parts?
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  #11  
Old 10-03-2017, 08:25 PM
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Plugs were decent, but messy to varying degrees. It's been a while since a starting attempt so even if they were fouled they were mostly dry.

This was the wettest and only the threads;

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KXcxHomNSQ8Vrplc2


I cleaned each, and checked the gap. I wasn't really sure what gap is correct but they were all consistent at 0.26" (I don't recall what that was in mm) so I left them.

I have spark at each plug, though I obviously need wires;

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KBMCKthWdXBpaeOW2

Now interestingly I discovered this; https://photos.app.goo.gl/Csq1hmLrN68X2p732

here it is again at a slightly different angle; https://photos.app.goo.gl/eNzitS0I9yZkPUkF2

I wasn't able to fish it out with my limited tools, I'll get it out tomorrow.
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  #12  
Old 10-04-2017, 12:01 PM
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Pelican sells the total rebuild kit. You will need two of them if fuel is jetting out of both your carbs.

I have, several times, just pulled off the tops of a carb, very carefully, and cleaned the needle and seat, the float, and then put it all back together. This depends on if you can do this without tearing up the gasket between the top plate and the inner workings of the carb. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.

And you will have to remove the float to get to the needle and seat. Do this carefully as you don't want to put the slightest bend in the adjustment flange. There is sometimes a small spring on top of the needle. Don't lose this if it is there.

When the float is out check it for leaks. Sometimes these are plastic; sometimes they are brass. If one has a leak it will have to be replaced or re-tinned if it is brass.

On a practical basis it is usually best to just plan on a total rebuild. This looks hard but it is not. It is time consuming because you want to do it right. And you might need a rebuild because if the carb needle and seat is gummed then the other small passages in the carb are also likely to be gummed. Your car would run after cleaning the needle and seat but not as well as if the carb were gone through.

And if you have to remove the carbs for a total rebuild you will find there is no way to get a wrench in there to remove the nuts on the valve cover side of the carbs. The simple solution is to remove the valve cover. Then you have all the clearance you need to swing the wrenches.
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  #13  
Old 10-04-2017, 12:24 PM
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If this was a running driving car then I find it odd that it would need the carbs rebuilt. Are we missing something here?
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  #14  
Old 10-04-2017, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScooterABC View Post
If this was a running driving car then I find it odd that it would need the carbs rebuilt. Are we missing something here?
It arrived after a truck ride. It would not start after being transported.

It could be the needles in the carbs were just bounced out of place. Cars, when transported, are chained down and if chained down too tight they don't flex like they are meant to when driving.

It could be something as easy as placing the needles back in the seats and setting the floats.
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  #15  
Old 10-04-2017, 07:06 PM
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To clarify the car was running perfectly before shipping.

So I finally managed to pull this out of the carb;

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UGHBbsSiBgNf08ES2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TtGf1q8umoI6psX32
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