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  #1  
Old 06-21-2018, 02:00 PM
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M180 Clutch Parts

Greetings,

I am in the exploratory stage of doing a complete clutch job (pressure plate, disk, bearings, flywheel balance check) on a 1968 Mercedes-Benz W110 230. All the parts seem to be readily available except for the pressure plate, which is NLA from all vendors including the Mercedes-Benz Classic Centre (confirmed via e-mail contact).

The part numbers for it are 000 250 96 04, 000 250 68 04, and TK 228 KX. This pressure plate, according to the 1959-1967 factory service manual, fits the following vehicles:
230 (W110)
230 S (W111)
230 SL (W113)
250 S (W108)
250 SE (W108)

Here are some photos of the pressure plate I need:
https://www.sls-hh-shop.de/main/en/mercedes-230-280sl-w113-/25-26-clutch-4-speed-box/25-a-clutch-manual-/clutch-pressure-plate-230-250sl-sachs-p-4018

Interestingly, the clutch pressure plate for the W108 280 S/SE and W113 280 SL vehicles appears to be readily available. Its Sachs part number is SC675.

I know that people have swapped M130 engines from the 280 series vehicles into six-cylinder W111s in the past, and retained the original column-shifted gearbox. If anyone on here has successfully done that swap, would you care to tell me about your clutch setup? Is the M130 clutch/pressure plate compatible with the M180 engine?

The 2.2 and 2.3 L M180s have four bearing crankshafts, which are balanced as a unit with the harmonic balancer and the flywheel. The 2.8 L M130 engines, however, I seem to recall have seven-bearing crankshafts with independently balanced flywheels. The 2.5 L engine out of the W108 250S also has a seven-bearing crankshaft. Does it use the same flywheel setup as the 2.8 L M130? If it does, then I would expect the clutches to be interchangeable.

If anyone on here has good information about these clutches, any help would be greatly appreciated. Does anyone also have any spare (new or used) pressure plates from six-cylinder W111s? If so, I may be interested in purchasing one if it meets the specifications in the FSM.
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  #2  
Old 06-21-2018, 02:10 PM
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Are you in the USA? I have a spare for a W111 M180.

I did a swap from M180 to M130 and used the same clutch and pressure plate and transmission. The flywheel and the bolts to fasten flywheel are different from M180 to M130.
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  #3  
Old 06-21-2018, 02:53 PM
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CTD:

There is quite a good possibility of using the diaphragm spring type pressure plate from M130 engines as a replacement for the NLA coil spring type.
Key dimensions that you will need for both are:
1) disc diameter
2) pressure plate-to-flywheel bolt circle diameter
3) step height from flywheel friction surface to pressure plate mounting surface
4) style of release bearing face; flat or radiused

If 1-3 are the same, the diaphragm P/P can be exchanged for the coil type. The matching release bearing will either be supplied with the P/P or can be obtained separately.
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Reiner View Post
CTD:

There is quite a good possibility of using the diaphragm spring type pressure plate from M130 engines as a replacement for the NLA coil spring type.
Key dimensions that you will need for both are:
1) disc diameter
2) pressure plate-to-flywheel bolt circle diameter
3) step height from flywheel friction surface to pressure plate mounting surface
4) style of release bearing face; flat or radiused

If 1-3 are the same, the diaphragm P/P can be exchanged for the coil type. The matching release bearing will either be supplied with the P/P or can be obtained separately.

I agree. It can take a lot of swapping back and forth to get everything to work. My 230SL 5 speed has a 250SE engine. I had to use a 230SL throw out bearing with a 280SL pressure plate and 230SL clutch hydraulics. 230 PP would not hold all the torque this thing will make.
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  #5  
Old 06-21-2018, 04:33 PM
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Wow, lots of help, and quick help at that!

If your 230SL has a 250SE engine from a 1966-68 W108, and it mated up correctly to the M130 pressure-plate for a 280, then that is a promising sign.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyNMemphis View Post
Are you in the USA? I have a spare for a W111 M180.

I did a swap from M180 to M130 and used the same clutch and pressure-plate and transmission. The flywheel and the bolts to fasten flywheel are different from M180 to M130.
I am in the eastern USA. If you have a spare pressure plate for a W111 M180, I think that might be the perfect fit for my six-cylinder Heckflosse! According to my FSM, all the 220 b, 220 Sb, 220 SEb, 230, and 230 S take the same pressure plate. Would you have a chance to look at it to examine its dimensions at some point?

It is interesting to hear that you did the aforementioned re-engining with the M130. By 'same', I am assuming that you used the original M180 clutch and pressure-plate on the M130 engine. If that is the case, then the bolt pattern must be the same for both engines.

I recall reading a while ago that the M130 used a lighter flywheel than the M180 due to the independently balanced crankshaft. But perhaps that flywheel could be the same diameter, but just thinner than the M180 unit. Were the M130 flywheel bolts shorter than the M180 bolts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Reiner View Post
CTD:

There is quite a good possibility of using the diaphragm spring type pressure plate from M130 engines as a replacement for the NLA coil spring type.
Key dimensions that you will need for both are:
1) disc diameter
2) pressure plate-to-flywheel bolt circle diameter
3) step height from flywheel friction surface to pressure plate mounting surface
4) style of release bearing face; flat or radiused

If 1-3 are the same, the diaphragm P/P can be exchanged for the coil type. The matching release bearing will either be supplied with the P/P or can be obtained separately.
Looking in my various manuals, I can't find the diameters anywhere, but if JeffreyNMemphis used a coil-spring M180 pressure plate on his M130 engine, that would be a good sign that the diameters are the same.

According to the FSM, the ''thickness of pressure plate" is 16.5 mm for the M180 coil-spring type. I could not find a corresponding dimension for the diaphragm type. I did find, however, in my Chilton's book that the 230/8 and 250/8 use a clutch disk of the same dimensions as the six-cylinder W110 and 111 vehicles.
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  #6  
Old 06-21-2018, 05:17 PM
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In the day, it was very common to rebuild coil spring pressure plates so all is not lost.

Have you contacted Sachs to see is the part is still in their system? They also might be able to recommend an alternate as it is common in the aftermarket to consolidate similar parts. Going with a higher torque capacity pressure plate may give you a stiffer clutch pedal so look at spring count / pressure.

There are many levels to NLA Not on the retailers shelf / not at the distribution warehouse the vendor buys from / not in the dealer parts network / not at the company that actually makes the part.
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  #7  
Old 06-21-2018, 10:14 PM
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Pelican will not allow the mentioning of other sellers.

So you will have to look for 'mercedes pressure plate rebuilding' in a search engine.

I did find that the A to Z guys once sold them, but no more.

I found one retailer rather quickly that was advertising what you are looking for with a price of under $150. I could not tell if it was rebuilt or new.

Do a bit of looking. They are out there.
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  #8  
Old 06-21-2018, 10:16 PM
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Well, will wonders never cease. Pelican sells these. They have Sachs and Mercedes-Benz brands. Prices start at about $190.
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  #9  
Old 06-22-2018, 06:15 AM
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Are you referring to the diaphragm-style pressure-plate for the M130 engine? That one is widely available. The spring-type one for the M180, however, I have verified directly from the Classic Centre as being no longer available. Some web sites list it for sale, but out of stock.

There are other pressure plates listed online, but many of them do not have the correct part numbers.
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  #10  
Old 06-22-2018, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTD View Post
Are you referring to the diaphragm-style pressure-plate for the M130 engine? That one is widely available. The spring-type one for the M180, however, I have verified directly from the Classic Centre as being no longer available. Some web sites list it for sale, but out of stock.

There are other pressure plates listed online, but many of them do not have the correct part numbers.
Actually I can't answer your question. I can only tell you what I have found.

You might take a look at the Penguin offering and see if it is what you are talking about. It would also be wise to call them and see if they have it in stock before placing an order.
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Old 06-22-2018, 02:02 PM
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Well, i did find a place in China that says they can deliver them in a few months.

The minimum order is 500 units.

I'm not sure how long it would take to sell 500 of these, but since they are NLA whoever would dive into this would have the market all to themselves!
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  #12  
Old 06-22-2018, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idle View Post
Well, i did find a place in China that says they can deliver them in a few months.

The minimum order is 500 units.

I'm not sure how long it would take to sell 500 of these, but since they are NLA whoever would dive into this would have the market all to themselves!
. . For a very long time, there might not be 500 running and driving cars in the USA that use this specific part number.

In other threads, some complain that the dealer does not stock parts for a 30 year old car, companies that have the parts are charging too much $. Here is the chance for one of these people to pony up the $ and make this happen.
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Old 06-24-2018, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 SL320 View Post
. . For a very long time, there might not be 500 running and driving cars in the USA that use this specific part number.

In other threads, some complain that the dealer does not stock parts for a 30 year old car, companies that have the parts are charging too much $. Here is the chance for one of these people to pony up the $ and make this happen.
Yeah, if anyone went for this they would likely have the whole world market. And it would likely take twenty years to sell them all.
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  #14  
Old 06-24-2018, 07:41 AM
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Perhaps one could take out a 30-year financing deal and make a small profit by the end of the multi-decade period!

Speaking of the Heckflosse, I now have stuff under the dash taken apart to replace the windshield wiper linkage (it's a rather substantial undertaking). I unearthed some 50-year-old original cooling hoses when removing the heater core unit! I think those are now officially the oldest hoses I have ever seen in active everyday service on a vehicle.
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  #15  
Old 06-24-2018, 03:38 PM
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I'd think twice about buying up a lot of stock from China. MB has a way of being out of stock and just as suddenly having stock. If the stuff from China ends up being poor quality you could end up with a lot of door stoppers.

I've seen where vendors buy up the last remaining stock at inflated prices, and then MB makes a new batch selling them at much lower prices, leaving those who invested holding the bag. I guess that's where that free enterprise rule comes in......
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