Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Vintage Mercedes Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-25-2018, 12:43 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Arizona
Posts: 69
M117 into W114 engine swap?

I'm new to this forum and I'm looking for help with my engine swap project. From what I understand after days of searching is that the least complicated option for a V8 swap into the W114 chassis is the M117 engine type. I have access to a complete 1989 560SEL donor car at a reasonable price. I have learned that W114 and R107 engine bays are essentially the same but are the tunnels too?

Specific questions I have:

- is the tunnel on the W114 large enough for the automatic transmission from a late W126 560SEL? If not, what type of modifications are required?

- can anyone confirm if R107 motor mounts will work?

- are R107 exhaust manifolds required?

- can the W126 ECM be used and how would it be wired in? I haven't been able to find a wiring diagram yet.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Last edited by Don Andres; 06-25-2018 at 12:44 PM. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-25-2018, 03:28 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,226
Lot of work for very little gain. Save yourself the trouble.

Between re-working the fuel, ignition, braking, exhaust, drive train and myriad piddling details you are talking a LOT of work.

Will it fit? Yes. Is it worth the "power" gain? No.

You'd still have a 3000+ pound chassis you are pushing around.

Your car, your money.
__________________
“Whatever story you're telling, it will be more interesting if, at the end you add, "and then everything burst into flames.”
― Brian P. Cleary, You Oughta Know By Now
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-26-2018, 03:47 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Arizona
Posts: 69
you might be right... I'm looking at other options now.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-26-2018, 06:01 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,226
As CTH pointed out in the other thread, the M104 conversion would be a better swap. Still a lot of work but without the added hassle of trying to shoe-horn the M117 into the engine bay.
__________________
“Whatever story you're telling, it will be more interesting if, at the end you add, "and then everything burst into flames.”
― Brian P. Cleary, You Oughta Know By Now
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-26-2018, 11:35 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Modesto CA
Posts: 2,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Andres View Post
you might be right... I'm looking at other options now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
As CTH pointed out in the other thread, the M104 conversion would be a better swap. Still a lot of work but without the added hassle of trying to shoe-horn the M117 into the engine bay.

It has frequently been mentioned that the R107 and the W114/115 chassis share the front crossmember and the engine mount location. The key distinction is that the 107 engine bay sheet metal was designed to accommodate the M117 engine. The 114/115 engine bay was designed for only inline engines; not the additional width of the M117.
The narrower confines of the 114/115 favor the small block Ford (SBF), the slimmest of the US V8s. The SBF with either a T5 manual box, or AOD autobox can be installed without disturbing sheet metal.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-26-2018, 12:41 PM
Tomguy's Avatar
Vintage Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: near Scranton, PA
Posts: 5,102
The 302 V8 is a very well-supported engine in the aftermarket community. I wouldn't hesitate to use one if you aren't hung up on MB engine originality.

An LS engine would also fit but you will need to modify the crossmember, or oil pan, or both. You will need to cut and re-weld the tunnel, as well, for the transmission. It's more involved, but it's been done / is being done.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/vintage-mercedes/378762-69-230-build-w-lq4-swap.html

In the end the questions are:
  1. How easy do you want the swap to be?
  2. Do you want more power?
  3. Do you want an MB engine or not?

If you want more power, the LS family is the way to go. Not that the 302 is a BAD choice. You can get 500+HP from a 302 with a stock bottom end with a turbo, but it won't last too long - and any more will probably split the block in half - whereas a mildly tuned LS/LQ can get 600+ reliably.
The LS, at this point, is EASIER for me to find than the 302 in junkyards around me. Most 302-powered cars have been crushed already. New LS/LQ vehicles still arrive daily.

If money ISN'T a factor AND power isn't a factor, go with the M104 or if it fits the M110 (I think it does but Frank can correct me). It will be more expensive to find a good MB engine or rebuild a worn one, but you'll have an MB engine.

If you want cheap and easy, 302 with its factory carbies (or find one with the harnesses, fuel pump/injectors etc. from a later car or just find a junked 1994-1995 SN95 GT for $300 at Copart).

If you want something more reliable with more power, the LQ cast iron engines are not that expensive and you can probably pick up an entire Express van for under a grand with fees. For example, there's at least 2 6.0 Expresses on Copart right now with Buy It Nows of $800 and if you wait for auction you can get one of the non-BIN ones for probably $500 plus fees.

If money isn't a factor and you want lighter-weight power, the aluminum-blocked LS engines are the way to go. You can use the factory harnesses and ECU etc... or even aftermarket controllers if you wish. Looks like wrecked CTS-Vs sell for less than wrecked Camaros and Corvettes...
__________________
Current:
2018 Chrysler Pacifica Limited
1999 Chrysler 300M - 211,xxx

My Mercedes Benz 108 and 109 resource site

Previous:
1972 280SE 4.5
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited "Hefe", 1992 Jeep Cherokee Laredo "Jeepy", 2006 Charger R/T "Hemi"
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-26-2018, 01:02 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Modesto CA
Posts: 2,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomguy View Post
or if it fits the M110 (I think it does but Frank can correct me).

Glad to oblige, Tom. The M110 was the OE engine in W114s '73-'76. Very expensive to make even 300HP w/o boost.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-05-2018, 09:54 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Arizona
Posts: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomguy View Post
The 302 V8 is a very well-supported engine in the aftermarket community. I wouldn't hesitate to use one if you aren't hung up on MB engine originality.

An LS engine would also fit but you will need to modify the crossmember, or oil pan, or both. You will need to cut and re-weld the tunnel, as well, for the transmission. It's more involved, but it's been done / is being done.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/vintage-mercedes/378762-69-230-build-w-lq4-swap.html

In the end the questions are:
  1. How easy do you want the swap to be?
  2. Do you want more power?
  3. Do you want an MB engine or not?

If you want more power, the LS family is the way to go. Not that the 302 is a BAD choice. You can get 500+HP from a 302 with a stock bottom end with a turbo, but it won't last too long - and any more will probably split the block in half - whereas a mildly tuned LS/LQ can get 600+ reliably.
The LS, at this point, is EASIER for me to find than the 302 in junkyards around me. Most 302-powered cars have been crushed already. New LS/LQ vehicles still arrive daily.

If money ISN'T a factor AND power isn't a factor, go with the M104 or if it fits the M110 (I think it does but Frank can correct me). It will be more expensive to find a good MB engine or rebuild a worn one, but you'll have an MB engine.

If you want cheap and easy, 302 with its factory carbies (or find one with the harnesses, fuel pump/injectors etc. from a later car or just find a junked 1994-1995 SN95 GT for $300 at Copart).

If you want something more reliable with more power, the LQ cast iron engines are not that expensive and you can probably pick up an entire Express van for under a grand with fees. For example, there's at least 2 6.0 Expresses on Copart right now with Buy It Nows of $800 and if you wait for auction you can get one of the non-BIN ones for probably $500 plus fees.

If money isn't a factor and you want lighter-weight power, the aluminum-blocked LS engines are the way to go. You can use the factory harnesses and ECU etc... or even aftermarket controllers if you wish. Looks like wrecked CTS-Vs sell for less than wrecked Camaros and Corvettes...
Thanks for the information! What I really want is a reliable engine and transmission combination that gives me a minimum of 300HP and 350-400 lbs of torque. A late 560 M117 would be in the ballpark but barely so. If I used a late 560SL as donor vehicle engine and transmission might fit in without major issues.

On the other hand, an LS engine is easier and cheaper to find and will easily give me loads of torque and horsepower. Originality isn't really an issue for me - an engine swap ruins that no matter which motor I pick.

At this point I'm leaning towards an LS engine. I think it is a much more involved swap but I'll get the power I want and then some. It will also be much easier to source parts etc. Lots of aftermarket options for just about anything.

I don't have time and a space to do this myself so I have started talking to a guy here in the Phoenix area who is specialized in this type of conversion. It won't be cheap but I think I'll have what I want - a W114 coupe restomod. I really like the /8s but I also like V8 power.

Last edited by Don Andres; 07-05-2018 at 11:12 PM. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-05-2018, 09:59 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Arizona
Posts: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Reiner View Post
It has frequently been mentioned that the R107 and the W114/115 chassis share the front crossmember and the engine mount location. The key distinction is that the 107 engine bay sheet metal was designed to accommodate the M117 engine. The 114/115 engine bay was designed for only inline engines; not the additional width of the M117.
The narrower confines of the 114/115 favor the small block Ford (SBF), the slimmest of the US V8s. The SBF with either a T5 manual box, or AOD autobox can be installed without disturbing sheet metal.
Thanks, from what I've learned so far it pretty much comes down to V8 options only.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-06-2018, 01:05 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,976
the M117 won't fit. M116 might fit. You'll have no space for manifolds.
__________________
With best regards

Al

Check out the W114, W115 enthusiast website.
http://www.stroke8.org

http://www.w108.org

Join the Mercedes W108 group
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mercedesw108/

My 280SL restoration

http://www.w108.org/gallery/albums/a...0959.thumb.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-06-2018, 02:04 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Arizona
Posts: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by alabbasi View Post
the M117 won't fit. M116 might fit. You'll have no space for manifolds.
Thanks for commenting. Not enough room between the frame rails or is something else in the way?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-06-2018, 09:48 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,976
yep
__________________
With best regards

Al

Check out the W114, W115 enthusiast website.
http://www.stroke8.org

http://www.w108.org

Join the Mercedes W108 group
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mercedesw108/

My 280SL restoration

http://www.w108.org/gallery/albums/a...0959.thumb.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-06-2018, 10:11 AM
Tomguy's Avatar
Vintage Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: near Scranton, PA
Posts: 5,102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Andres View Post
Thanks for the information! What I really want is a reliable engine and transmission combination that gives me a minimum of 300HP and 350-400 lbs of torque. A late 560 M117 would be in the ballpark but barely so. If I used a late 560SL as donor vehicle engine and transmission might fit in without major issues.
The 117 is too wide as Frank and Al pointed out. I doubt a 116 would fit either (I thought the m117 was only like 3cm wider?)

With the work and money you'd spend getting a 5.6 to that power level, you'd be spending triple what a mild LS would cost, nevermind the work to get the bigger 5.6 to fit. The biggest issue is what Frank pointed out - and I'd believe him in knowing - the AOD for a 302 would fit. We know the 4L transmissions don't fit, as the other conversion thread I linked showed. So that will involve fab work, but much easier work than modifying the unibody rails to try to get an m117 in.

Also throwing it out - I don't think it's been done - a Gen III Hemi would probably fit too, and the 5.7 stock is 345HP / 345TQ for the mildest / oldest version (LX Car engine manifolds). The truck engines breathe a bit better and have more.
__________________
Current:
2018 Chrysler Pacifica Limited
1999 Chrysler 300M - 211,xxx

My Mercedes Benz 108 and 109 resource site

Previous:
1972 280SE 4.5
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited "Hefe", 1992 Jeep Cherokee Laredo "Jeepy", 2006 Charger R/T "Hemi"
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-06-2018, 10:16 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,976
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomguy View Post
The 117 is too wide as Frank and Al pointed out. I doubt a 116 would fit either (I thought the m117 was only like 3cm wider?)
I've seen a 116 in a W114 engine bay, there's a bit more room but you'll still have to make custom headers.

Forget the V8. M104 is the way to go or get a W123 which will take a 560 motor without too much heartburn.
__________________
With best regards

Al

Check out the W114, W115 enthusiast website.
http://www.stroke8.org

http://www.w108.org

Join the Mercedes W108 group
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mercedesw108/

My 280SL restoration

http://www.w108.org/gallery/albums/a...0959.thumb.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-06-2018, 03:13 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Arizona
Posts: 69
Thank you everybody, great information! I'll get back to you once my project starts and post project steps.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page