relative values

[berfinroy]

While I generally understand why convertibles are worth more than their hardtop counterparts, the differential sometimes astounds me. Case in point; 280SE 3.5 convertible vs any 300SEL sedan. THE later was Mercedes' very finest offering of the day, (save for the exclusive 600), and despite the distinct and constant joy of their incomparable air suspension shared only with the 600 (with the exception of a few early 300SE convertibles), they are worth...what... $30,000-75,000 (6.3 only) vs at least $250,00 for the 280SE? The 300SEL drives and handles better, is quieter, and accommodates a few friends without their being severely cramped by the meager rear leg room in the convertibles.

I've had convertibles. I like convertibles. I still don't get the huge differential.

[Tomguy]

I may be mistaken here, but I think convertibles are a boomer-generation thing. I do know that sales of NEW convertibles sure don't support any evidence that they're a Gen X or Millennial commodity.

I would suspect to see convertibles drop in the next decade, slowly, then rapidly in the decade following, while sedans either increase or hold steady. The only advantage convertibles offer over sedans is the open-air top, but the drawbacks are pretty significant, and unless something changes, 60-70 year old parents, in 10-20 years, are still going to want 4 doors for their kids to come along with them, as current trends are already showing more adults staying home with parents even past 30!

[Rrrockhound]

"When the top goes down, the price goes up." -- Sports Car Market

Nobody buys an old car for practical considerations.* In the collector market, style and fun > practicality and weathertightness. Convertibles are more fun for parades, and a lot of people won't drive their classics in wet weather anyway, so why not get the convertible? You also have to consider the supply. Convertibles are usually rarer than sedans.




*Almost nobody, anyway.

[Tomguy]

Right, style and fun, you've got it! See, in my view, the sedans and coupes have smoother/cleaner lines than the ragtops. I'm not the only one who thinks this! A lot of people I know all think that coupes and sedans have cleaner lines. Plus they handle better, thanks to that structural rigidity that a roof adds.

Supply of convertibles versus sedans, that may be a key factor, true. For the 6.3 alone, probably 2-3 times as many were built, as total w111 convertibles. Just a SWAG based on numbers in my head, no research done here. But does that mean a 6cyl w111 convertible should sell for double to triple 6.3 prices, when you factor in how much more fun and more beautiful a 6.3 sedan is?

[cornemuse]

I own a '64 Porsche cabriolet (with a factory) hardtop. It is worth less than the same '65 version. Whats the difference? At some point, (whenever they changed new model year, at a certain serial #, wallah! its a '65!! Other than that, & that there are fewer '65's, there is no other difference. The '65 is worth quite a bit more, , , ,

post # 28

What is the oldest Benz here?

& they do look better than the ragtops!!

[bracurrie]

The sedans have always been worth less, excepting of course the W100 and W109 6.3. The 6.3 has come down from recent high valuations, I believe because the cost of ownership out strips potential appreciation.
I wouldn't want to own anything that was a "financial asset" like a W111/W112 coupe or convertible. I want to drive them hard and drive them a lot. Fixing up a W108/W109 to use regularly in place of buying anything else that is as interesting and nice really makes fiscal sense as long as the cost of getting them to usable shape doesn't exceed the cost of other alternative vintage driver cars.
At least that's what I keep telling myself.

[Tony H]

I think it's more of 2drs vs 4drs. Since all (most) cabs are 2 drs they get the value of 2drs plus the bonus of convertible. For true coupes not just 2dr versions of 4dr cars.

[vwnate1]

I guess I'm a nobody..... (you alls knew that already ) .

Rag tops are nice but you have to live where they can be used and enjoyed .

I used to get suckered by the sharp looks of some old vintage convertible along with the usual 'if you don't buy it Nate, we're going to CRUSH IT and it's cheap....' B.S. ~ I'd by and up fix the darned thing then only ever drop the top a few times and sell it at a dead loss a year or two later, repeat over and over, each time I'd be out zizzing across the Desert and my light Scots/Irish skin would get terribly burned, off the car would go to a new owner.....

Not everyone who likes cars has a garage to park them in and the weather anywhere is rough on drop tops .

[berfinroy]

Many automotive commentators have ominously observed that the future of automotive collectibility doesn't look bright. The certain coming of self driving, call-one-when-you-need-one electric fleet cars is likely to end mankind's century + long love affair with the automobile. It will just be a shared appliance. Oh, the very rare, super upscale models like Duesenbergs and select Ferrari models will hold their own as museum pieces, but the vast majority of the rest of the collector car inventory will go the way of the carrier pigeon.

The good news? Most of us will be long gone.

[Tomguy]

Maybe some of you would be gone, I am hoping I'm around so I can buy 20-40 good, formerly-expensive cars for dirt cheap... and have a nice collection ranging from sports cars (McLaren F1, Ferrari F40, NSX, Ford GT), muscle cars (Hemi Cuda, GT350, Cobra), classic/exotics/imports (300SEL 6.3, 450SEL 6.9, 3000GT VR4, Supra) and the best of this century (Hellcat, Viper, Corvette, LaFerrari, Chiron, Konigsegg)

[Rrrockhound]

Originally Posted by Tomguy

Maybe some of you would be gone, I am hoping I'm around so I can buy 20-40 good, formerly-expensive cars for dirt cheap... and have a nice collection ranging from sports cars (McLaren F1, Ferrari F40, NSX, Ford GT), muscle cars (Hemi Cuda, GT350, Cobra), classic/exotics/imports (300SEL 6.3, 450SEL 6.9, 3000GT VR4, Supra) and the best of this century (Hellcat, Viper, Corvette, LaFerrari, Chiron, Konigsegg)

The scenario I've been envisioning goes something like this: Self-driving cars eventually get so good that they're fault-free, meaning they either don't get into accidents or if they do, it's the fault of a human driver in the other vehicle. Insurance companies stop ensuring human-driven cars except for a ridiculously high premium. Maybe some states or municipalities even outlaw analog cars, or put higher taxes or license fees on them. People do the math and give up their analog cars out of sheer economics. Eventually a combination of laws, high insurance premiums, and inavailability of good gasoline sidelines most cars built before, say, 2020 or so. (Cars built after that will be retrofittable to self-driving if they didn't have it already). You're only able to operate your analog car off road, at the track, in parades, and maybe on some rural roads. The analog car market collapses, with run-of-the-mill cars being close to worthless (similar to used console pianos today), and "collectible" cars being reasonably priced but inoperable (no place to drive them, no gas to put in them, no one to work on them). Only the very top tier of cars (like some of those mentioned in the previous post) still has any collector value, but they're only operated by super rich guys in special closed venues, kind of like country clubs, but for cars.

Enjoy the future, everyone!

[bracurrie]

Originally Posted by Rrrockhound

The scenario I've been envisioning goes something like this: Self-driving cars eventually get so good that they're fault-free, meaning they either don't get into accidents or if they do, it's the fault of a human driver in the other vehicle. Insurance companies stop ensuring human-driven cars except for a ridiculously high premium. Maybe some states or municipalities even outlaw analog cars, or put higher taxes or license fees on them. People do the math and give up their analog cars out of sheer economics. Eventually a combination of laws, high insurance premiums, and inavailability of good gasoline sidelines most cars built before, say, 2020 or so. (Cars built after that will be retrofittable to self-driving if they didn't have it already). You're only able to operate your analog car off road, at the track, in parades, and maybe on some rural roads. The analog car market collapses, with run-of-the-mill cars being close to worthless (similar to used console pianos today), and "collectible" cars being reasonably priced but inoperable (no place to drive them, no gas to put in them, no one to work on them). Only the very top tier of cars (like some of those mentioned in the previous post) still has any collector value, but they're only operated by super rich guys in special closed venues, kind of like country clubs, but for cars.

Enjoy the future, everyone!

Buzzkill.

[MikeE63]

Originally Posted by Rrrockhound

The scenario I've been envisioning goes something like this: Self-driving cars eventually get so good that they're fault-free, meaning they either don't get into accidents or if they do, it's the fault of a human driver in the other vehicle. Insurance companies stop ensuring human-driven cars except for a ridiculously high premium. Maybe some states or municipalities even outlaw analog cars, or put higher taxes or license fees on them. People do the math and give up their analog cars out of sheer economics. Eventually a combination of laws, high insurance premiums, and inavailability of good gasoline sidelines most cars built before, say, 2020 or so. (Cars built after that will be retrofittable to self-driving if they didn't have it already). You're only able to operate your analog car off road, at the track, in parades, and maybe on some rural roads. The analog car market collapses, with run-of-the-mill cars being close to worthless (similar to used console pianos today), and "collectible" cars being reasonably priced but inoperable (no place to drive them, no gas to put in them, no one to work on them). Only the very top tier of cars (like some of those mentioned in the previous post) still has any collector value, but they're only operated by super rich guys in special closed venues, kind of like country clubs, but for cars.

Enjoy the future, everyone!

Man, i hope this is not the case. If so, then maybe only in Silicon Valley or in those places where nobody appreciates driving and more appreciates all their electronics. I say, let them sit in their self-drive, autonomous taxis plodding along in, hopefully, the slow lane in a nice cadence with the rest of the lemmings...staring at their screens; i highly doubt they'll be enjoying the scenery.

Me, I can't wait to have some open road without distracted, idiotic drivers causing accidents. I am constantly reminded of the movie we watched when my kids were younger, Wall-E. For those who have seen it, it feels like we're all heading that way - totally unable to "do" anything for ourselves and instead just "ordering it up". Honestly though, I do worry that there will no longer be that special indy/mechanic who can help with the older & classic cars when we're in a bind and this may be the demise of many classics but also the reason why I bought a w108 with a 2.8 inline six. For one, i could easily curl up next to the engine because there is so much room to work and two, while I am partially mechanically skilled and by no means really good at it... i am trying hard to get better at it (thanks to youtube) because keeping classics on the road is a great reminder of how cool cars used to be... cool to drive, cool to look at, cool to cruise and 50yr old leather... mmmm, smells so good and not like chemicals. Cars today are generic and lack style. Case in point, a C43 AMG (really? and it looks like every other C class); Hellcat (powerful yes, stylish um, no) & what is really the difference between a Cayenne, Audi Q5 and VW Toureg, nada. Ok; i have enjoyed reading & replying to this post... now, GET OFF MY LAWN you damn kids!!!!

[Idle]

I've owned a bunch of older cars at one time or the other. One thing a convert can do is be a parade car. For some people this is a big deal.

Converts of that era had a lot of hand work going into them. As someone who has repaired more than one hand built car I would like to say this feature will not made a car easier to fix.

I have found different sized bolts from one side of the car to the other. Body parts are bent to fit and will sometimes unwind when they are removed. And dashboards are sometimes mounted in creative ways. Some times even a little spot weld where a bolt should have been but the hole was not lining up.

Converts also develop stress cracks along the areas where the top frame is mounted. These will take some hand built solutions to correct.

All 107's, which was designed from the ground up, don't seem to have these problems. But 107's were not hand built.

And anytime you drop the top you knock it a bit out of alignment.

And replacing a top? My best time is 18 hours. And that was with a helper.

[vwnate1]

"I say, let them sit in their self-drive, autonomous taxis plodding along in, hopefully, the slow lane in a nice cadence with the rest of the lemmings...staring at their screens; i highly doubt they'll be enjoying the scenery. "

? Sort of like the movie 'Sleeper' in the 1970's ? .