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  #1  
Old 12-04-2004, 04:03 PM
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Convert 109 to 560

Well, I think this has been addressed before, but I would like to explore this combo more. What would you think of a 560 from an SEC dropped into a 109 300SEL? I'm just underpowered and would like to keep her Mercedes. Is the 560 to big? Could or should I use the trannie also? What about the rear end? Brakes? I wuld like to modernize the drivetrain (we have all heard this before). Some say use the even later engine out of a 500E. Help me build this car.

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  #2  
Old 12-04-2004, 06:53 PM
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Location: Evansville, Indiana
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Year and original engine?

Before 1970 (or the first year for the V8, whatever that was), the brake booster will interfere with the left valve cover. You can check by taking a look at the brake pedal. If it hooks over to the right or is straight, no go. If it's bent off to the left, you have the re-located booster and can fit the 560 in.

It will be tight, but should drop right in. You will need the V8 radiator and oil cooler, the electronics, new fuel lines (higher pressure) and pump, plus some other bits.

I beleive the accessories are the same.

You will have to change the tranny if you have a fourspeed auto, I don't think they fit (although I could be wrong). The fourspeed would be nice, too, though, so you may want to keep the engine/tranny together. Might require some changes to driveshaft.

Please note that the engine does NOT sit on the centerline on a W108/109, it's offset to the right about 4" because the differential is offset to the left an equivalent amount.

Peter
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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #3  
Old 12-04-2004, 08:59 PM
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Fred, mine is a 72 300 SEL with the 4.5 three speed. My girl has a 78 500SEC and she hates the car. It has just over 100K and runs like a IROC I can get it cheep. I'm thinking..................move everything. Engine, tranny, breaks ect. everything you can. I do not think I could move the rear end because of the air spension but I do think it would bring a wounderful old car into the modern world.
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  #4  
Old 12-04-2004, 09:28 PM
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Correction.hers is a 87 SEC not a 78.
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  #5  
Old 12-04-2004, 09:43 PM
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Didn't think there was a 500 SEC in 78...

You won't want to change the rear drive assembly, it's WAY too much work -- take a peek underneath and you will see why. The W109 has a center pivot swing axle system and the SEC has semitrailing arms with jointed axles. No interchangable parts.

The KE-III Jetronic will require transplanting all the electronics, too.

Peter
__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #6  
Old 12-04-2004, 10:45 PM
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I have been on heavy medication lately and have find myself stumbling here and there. Just have not had a very clear head. Carol's Car is a 1987 560SEL and is really a nice car but she purchased it from a smoker friend and is really sorry about that. I have convienced her that we could make a real nice machine using her drivetrain and my 109 chassie. I do not really know anyone qualified to do the work though and could not live with a half ass job. I appreciate your input and was hoping you would respond, I just may have the balls to do this deal. Just would need a real good road map.
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  #7  
Old 12-05-2004, 11:33 PM
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Location: Raleigh, NC currently residing in KL, Malaysia
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Hello,
It can be done BUT it is a tight squeeze and the tranny tunnel will need to be massaged with a sledge hammer for the alloy housing four speed to fit in there without fouling
I have seen a 280SEL 3.5 fitted with the full house 300bhp 560SEL engine here, the car is very fast but it keeps eating the crownwheel/pinion, right now I think it is on the 3rd. set after four years
The same guy has a W114 with a M103 Mosselmann supercharged engine, that to seems to be breaking the propshaft or diff every year or so but it can scare the hell out of passengers and blow off anything except BMW M5s
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  #8  
Old 12-06-2004, 08:02 AM
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It won't be a fast job, nor will it be a cheap one. As for a road map, start with the basics. After all an engine is designed be dropped into a car. What holds it down?

- Air suspension (you need some form of air pump)
- Cooling sysem
- Electrical system for engine & tranny management
- Exhaust system
- Drive shaft
- Gas lines
- Motor & transmission mounts
- Shift linkage

Then there is clearance for actually having room.

- Overall length of the engine, transmission & driveshaft must essentially match (actually, point of engine mounts back to end of driveshaft must match).
- No interference with the steering linkage, brake system, exhaust, front axle, front chassis support of the axle.

Then there is the operational aspects of the car.

- Gas delivered with correct fuel pressure.
- Brakes are adequate. The originals should be if you keep it under 100mph.
- The differential can take the increased torque. You might need a 6.3 differential, but the gearing is VERY different. BTW, 6.3 owners blow up their rear from time to time too. Jack-rabbit starts are never good. Nor is shifting into reverse when the car has any forward momemtum. My 600 is down because a previous owner did that.

If you had a parts motor & parts car body to experiment with, the various measurements of clearance can be easily figured out.

Enjoy the project when you're healthy. For now, hibernate. -CTH
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  #9  
Old 12-06-2004, 10:02 AM
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Is the rear end on a 109 4.5 the same as the 6.3, probally not but would be plenty for the 5.6. I do not think I would be able to change out the rear end. I would want to upgrade the brakes. Hate to shoe horne a Transmission would want an east fit but can not think of another that has potential to fit as well. As far as the supension air pump, just don't see why I can't use the old one. It has been suggested that I put an E500 engine in the car, it is after all a 5.0 and BIG horsepower.
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  #10  
Old 12-06-2004, 10:08 AM
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Or I could go out and buy me a Chrysler 300 and have a cheeper version of th same car .....
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  #11  
Old 12-06-2004, 06:20 PM
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well it really depends on how far you are willing to go with stuff like this.

the hard part is really getting the whole thing to feel like a complete car. i put a 3 rotor engine into my rx7 a few years ago, and it always felt like i put a 50% bigger motor into the car

mike
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  #12  
Old 12-13-2004, 02:28 AM
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First the rear diff question. The 1094.5 used at times a limited slip 323, but also a sigle wheel drive. The 6.3 is a 285 limited slip after the roughly first 60 which were single wheel drive as well. What's the tougher of the two? The 323. Sad but true. You wil possiblyl need to have a different tranny
to match the gearing. You do your own math.
Now the motor swap question, will it fit?. I know from The Mercedes Enthusiast Magazine from Great Britain that there is a German firm installing the 560 in 1970ish 111s and 112 converts. If it was mine, I'd install a E500 or 500E from the early 1990s or a 6.3. 6.3s fit, this I've witnessed. Either way, the power would be HUGE.
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  #13  
Old 12-13-2004, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Now the motor swap question, will it fit?. I know from The Mercedes Enthusiast Magazine from Great Britain that there is a German firm installing the 560 in 1970ish 111s and 112 converts. If it was mine, I'd install a E500 or 500E from the early 1990s or a 6.3. 6.3s fit, this I've witnessed. Either way, the power would be HUGE.
Single cam engines will fit a W108/109 bodyshell, if it is a USA 4.5, with very little *extra* work. I do not think the 4 cam engines can be made to fit, the extra width of the cylinder heads looks like a *no go*.
I went up to look at the 560 engined W108 yesterday(Sunday). It is still on a 3.46 3.5 open diff, I think the guy has given up smoking tyres away from trafficlights The engine does sit a bit higher than the 3.5, tunnel had to be *massaged* for the 4 speed alloy transmission to fit there, the only custom *upgrades* are a *HIGH CAPACITY* radiator with a 4 row core AND a swirl pot from a Jag XJ6 and a fabricated exhaust system.
I would balk at trying to remove the starter or PAS box for a reseal but this guy is a shop owner
Have a good day
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  #14  
Old 12-13-2004, 08:09 PM
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The 560 is an M117 engine, will drop right into a 4.5L body. So will the 6.3 or 6.9, that isn't really the issue. The difficulties are the tranny, rear end, and electronics.

For the 560 to work, you must transplant the engine electronics, and I'd forgo cruise control, etc, too much work. Will also require a custom exhaust, probably (try TimeValve for that). Tranny from the 6.3 should work if you can find one, although it may not mate up without a custom mount plate (big PITA) and the fourspeed is larger.....

Any rear end will work, but I'd personally look for the 6.3 posi-track, else you risk spun tires.

The other are not "single wheel drive", by the way, they drive both wheels very nicely, thank you. They do NOT, however, limit wheel speed differential like a posi-track does, so one wheel (the unloaded one) will always spin if the tires break traction. When one tire isn't slipping, both wheels are driven equally.

Peter

Peter
__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #15  
Old 12-14-2004, 02:25 PM
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Location: sunnyvale ca
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if the engine swap is big like this one. its an opportunity to go for a custom ecu/control system as its less work than putting a stock efi system in (installation wise). of course it adds $ and you have to tune the thing....

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