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  #1  
Old 05-14-2006, 03:30 AM
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W114 front end on w123 car

This is probably a stupid thread and a long shot but after looking at many pictures of w114 body and engine bay's, I can help but to notice how close they are/look. They feel really close to one another but the w114 have a really sweet retro look to them because of the look of the front end.

Can/has a w114 front end ever been installed on a w123 ?

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  #2  
Old 05-14-2006, 06:04 AM
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Nothing is impossible but why bother? Just find a nice clean W115 and drive it. The mechanicals on the last W115 are pretty much the same as on the first models W123.

You might be able to transplant the grill but the lights are taller so you need to lower the bumpers as well as altering the height of the fenders.. The lights also will require the fenders to be broader and the hood narrower.

In fact its possible to fit the M102 engine/gearbox/diff from a 230e/w123 into the W115 with minimal bodywork and have a pretty nippy car with good fuel-economy.

Anil
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  #3  
Old 05-14-2006, 10:19 AM
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Probably

Can be do-able, the guys who did the bodywork on my 6.9 just rebuilt a 94 Honda Accord and gave it a 2001 front end. I had to double take when I first saw it. They do that all the time, especially with trucks (escallade front end, 2002 front end in an 83 model). Quite creative but like Anil says. Why bother?
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  #4  
Old 05-14-2006, 10:21 AM
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W114/115's and W123 engines

Gotta go along with anilv - if you like the body (I do also, and have both),
you can get the later post-M130 2.8L singlecam gassers or post-616 240D diesel 114/115's with either the gasser twincam 2.8L M110 or the (not-yet-turbo'd) diesel 3.0L 617 engines which powered the earlier W123's. Have not yet seen any diesel W115 coupes, but no reason you couldn't convert or reassemble same (For instance, I will have a 300D/auto to pull out of a 79 W123 300CD next week).
The same goes for the twincam M110's - I believe all the US 280's and 280C's were carb'd, rather than the CIS-injected version, but you could also change that gear out if you're really ambitious (lots of cheap W123 280E's around - in fact, I even have a trash-bodied but very strong-engined one with an excellent tranny, which I'm eventually parting out).
The other MAJOR advantage of the 114/115's, in my opinion, is their NOT having the ACC-II Climate control system which plagued the early W123 280's and 300's (not the 240D's).
The 280's were perhaps best before 74, when the emissions crap and fugly federal bumpers were stuck onto an otherwise perfectly good car But with that, you also get the channeled raingutters, faired rearview mirrors (and no vent windows) and channeled taillights, all of which presaged the W123's...
Transmissions are essentially identical, rear ends nearly so; front end totally redesigned (but both handle superbly, in my opinion)

Punchline - you can easily pick the features you most like, even mix-and-matching them to your custom tastes - so wait for and get what YOU want...they're out there. [and as my bride sez about the 70 114 250/8 that was hers, and our first of many, "It just looks 'Mercedes-ier'...", kinda like my 52 Ford F1 pickup looks "truckier"]

Happy pickin'

Stan
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Last edited by Tristar1959; 05-14-2006 at 01:59 PM.
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  #5  
Old 05-14-2006, 02:47 PM
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So if I want a diesel 114 I'm better off finding one and swaping the 617.952 motor in if I want taht look and that powertrain ?

Is that a hard thing to do for a backyard mechanic like myself?

Is it better to start with a diesel model or car I find a gas model and use that just as well. Is there other OLDER body styles that I can swap a 617.952 in whitout too much headache ?


I already have a complete '85 w123 300D that could be the donor for the powerplant.

Last edited by jfman; 05-14-2006 at 02:58 PM.
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  #6  
Old 05-14-2006, 03:59 PM
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The 617.952 will ONLY fit the 123 and possibly the 116 chassis. On account of the oil filter it wont go into the 114/115.
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  #7  
Old 05-15-2006, 12:25 AM
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Oil filter conflict

Dog -

My knowledge of MB diesels can be summed up in the fact that I know what that funny little extra thing on the dash with the holes in it which glowed red in my (transmission donor) 115 220D was and now know how to turn the key and wait in my (next transmission donor) 123 240D until the yellow light goes out, before cranking.

Many race cars, etc (and the sophisticated flathead V-8 in my 52 Ford F1 pickup) use oil lines to a separate filter canister. Would it be possible to get around the problem with a machined flange and lines, that way? Whassa problem - crossmember conflict?

What about other turbo issues - wiring/sensor harnesses; plumbing of various sorts; extra relays, etc - all transplantable from his donor? How different from a 115 unblown 300D is all the other stuff that hangs off a 617 turbo? Both my 115 220D and 123 240D four-bangers appear to have YARDS of room fore-and-aft for another cylinder and all sorts of pieces-parts...compared to either the M114, M130 or M110 versions of same I have which have managed to fit in TWO more cylinders. I mean, you could lose a small child down onto the bellhousing, in the 240D!
What about those frequency- and torque- tuned design parts, such as motor mounts, reinforced flex discs, etc?

jfman - I assume you have the turbo's transmission, still - for its shift points and perhaps more robust design?

Okay...SOMEBODY on this forum has either done this or knows someone who has - Dog, any other places he should search/ask?

Or, let's ask the guy who's working on BOTH 300D's - "Wodnek", ya there?


Stan
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  #8  
Old 05-15-2006, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristar1959

jfman - I assume you have the turbo's transmission, still - for its shift points and perhaps more robust design?

Stan

I have the whole "swap" sitting in a storage unit.
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  #9  
Old 05-15-2006, 12:56 AM
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rebadging

jfman,

Of course, you will have to add the 123's "TURBODIESEL" badge to the RH side of your 115 300D's trunk, for the amusement and edification of Benz aficiondados who come up behind you...and watch you pull away...

Stan
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78 280CE
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  #10  
Old 05-15-2006, 01:14 AM
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You know however when I think about pulling a project like this together, I might be better off using an even older model benz and an even newer diesel engine to get the ultimate diesel retro car.

I'm just having fun and daydreaming about this right now but there is no telling what I might do if I found the right shell.

Like this beauty right here..


http://www.hebdo.net/result/detailinfo.aspx?ID=20503146

and here

http://www.hebdo.net/result/detailinfo.aspx?ID=15273082
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2000 E39 M5
2002 e46 330xit
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1970 chevelle (project)
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  #11  
Old 05-15-2006, 02:31 AM
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Appropriate swaps

The W108 or W109 SE's and SEL's are a truly wonderful car in their own right - and yes, all gassers. But I suspect that even a turbo'd 300 engine would be a slight disappointment in one of these tanks...after you've driven even one of the fuel-injected 2.5L or 2.8L (or even the ancient 3.0L) sixes.
Hmmm - wonder how you'd badge a 300SE with a 3-liter diesel in it...as a "300SE" (left) and "3.0DT" (right)?

Unfortunately, unrusted W108/109 shells are harder to come by than the running machinery - see Tomguy's saga over possibly replacing Quicksilver.
And by FAR harder to find unrusted 114's and 115's or cheap unrusted 111's/112's.. But blown rustfree 114 and 115 sedans DO pop up sometimes in Arizona and New Mexico, and such.

And anyone with a valuable unrusted W111 coupe or cabriolet with a blown engine is going to replace the stock engine...so they're not a viable (economical) candidate.

But as far as mix-n-matching goes, it's your choice - I did see one chop/stuff job in Norfolk years ago, in which they stuffed a 6.9 into a 560SEC, and called it a "690SEC" - even brazed up a badge to that effect. Talk about a flat-out SCREAMER!

That second Quebec car is NOT a 250S (Also a W108 chassis) - it's just a 114 250 (or a 230, or 220), missing its road lights, possible rust in rockers. But at least a manual tranny. Possibly even worth almost that much, in $Cdn. Now I know you could get away with putting a 240 flywheel, clutch and stick tranny onto a normally-aspirated 300 engine (lots of guys have done it), but probably not a turbo [comments, anyone?]

While you're daydreaming - wanna buy my project 1959 300d and drop an oilburner in it? They say its M189 300 got 12 mpg off the showroom floor...
Now, while possible and improbable, THAT would verge on the sacreligious and blasphemous, to all us Benz nuts!

Happy daydreaming.
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59 300d
65 250SE/Cpe
70 250/8
72 250C
78 280CE
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  #12  
Old 05-15-2006, 02:42 AM
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Decent Georgia cars can be found every once in a while for good prices.


How much heavier are they compared to a 123 ? (w108-w109)


What does a 1959 300D look like ?
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2000 E39 M5
2002 e46 330xit
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1970 chevelle (project)
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  #13  
Old 05-15-2006, 08:39 AM
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gimme a low-tech 240D
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
I have the whole "swap" sitting in a storage unit.
Muffler and header pipe are different diameter too. The pencil glow plugs can probly be accomodated with an upgrade kit that includes wiring relays, etc. Dunno about the turbo sensors. Would be easier with a non-turbo engine. And of course, you'll have to jury rig a separate oil filter cannister fender wall mounted. Sounds like a hassle to me. Just having an engine and tranny in storage probly wont be enough. The Turbo will include millions of fiddly bits, firewall and fender wall mouned relays, vacuum line plumbing, etc
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  #14  
Old 05-15-2006, 09:11 AM
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gimme a low-tech 240D
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristar1959
Dog -
Many race cars, etc (and the sophisticated flathead V-8 in my 52 Ford F1 pickup) use oil lines to a separate filter canister. Would it be possible to get around the problem with a machined flange and lines, that way?
Stan
Stan, a friend of mine tried putting a more modern 240D engine into an old finbody 110..... He got as far as fabricating engine mounts and fighting the oil filter problem. What you're talking about with separate oil filter is exactly where he halted the operation. Would require tapping ports for hoses in addition to fabricating a flange/plate. That's the point where he gave up.

But the Adenauer 300SD/d idea might not be so bad, especially if the limousine engine bay has room for the oil can filter.

Am not entirely impressed with 5cyl turbo engines. Top speed remains the same. The turbo just provides an acceleration boost. And the differences in having alot more over-engineered components added to the 5 cyl turbo as opposed to the 4 cyl engine are immense. There's nothing wrong with a 220D/115 in original configuration. The 5cyl turbo conversion sounds like a royal hassle to me. In fact, would be better off with gasoline 114 m110 6cyl twincam 280 - stone stock.
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  #15  
Old 05-15-2006, 12:55 PM
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What about a modern turbo diesel engine ?

high HP ! quieter operation, better gas mileage..

Wiring might be a nightmare however

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1970 chevelle (project)
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