1976 300D York Compressor Freeze 12 Questions - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

KylePavao · #1 05-19-2006, 06:31 PM

Good evening,

From the little I know about air conditioning/auto refrigeration, the fact the the York piston driven (I think it is since its so HUGE!) works well. It doesn't squeal, and engages smoothly when I turn on the green AC knob with the fan on. However, it doesn't blow cold. I don't think the compressor is shot, and was curious of the use of Freeze 12 (R12 substitute) will mess up my compressor. What exactly do I have to do to install the Freeze 12 in my system? I've seen threas where people use R134A in these old York compressors, without problems. The kit I am buying comes with three 12 oz cans, and oil. I'd love to have cold AC in this car. Am I on the right track? Thanks

-Kyle

Tristar1959 · #2 05-23-2006, 01:57 PM

I have a couple of friends with an A-C rig and pumps, etc, and one uses Freeze-12 in all his Benz's, another in his W123 280C. We evacuated and refilled my 280CE's York system over two years ago, with a couple of new hoses and a new receiver-dryer (ALWAYS replace that if system's been open, so its guts can't disintegrate and clog your whole system). To date, it is functioning perfectly.

HOWEVER. Another friend who is in our local Vol F.D. points out that Freeze-12 is made with either Butane or Propane...and there is the potential for augmented fires or explosion in a crash - not that the hoses and condensor are located up front in the grille or anything...

So, if that risk is worth it to you...have at it...

I understand that R134a has smaller molecules, hence permeates older hoses and seals. Also that it requires compressors to work harder for same effect, hence may well fail earlier.

ytr1903 · #3 05-31-2006, 03:49 PM

Just out of curiosity, I got on the Freeze 12 website and checked out the MSDS sheets. It turns out that R134a is 100 per cent Tetrafluoroethane and the Freeze 12 is 70-90 per cent Tetrafluoroethane. The other ingredient is Difluoroethane. This is pretty exciting news for all you chemical types, I am sure. No butane or propane, though.

Tom

#4 05-31-2006, 07:18 PM

Kyle,

Check out this post for some info on york compressor shaft seals. If your compressor is working but out of charge, i'd guess you'll need to put one in.

I put 134a in the car as well, but sold it after the summer that my girlfriend drove it. It was cold through the summer, but I can't attest to how long it will last.

cheers,
dan r.

t walgamuth · #5 05-31-2006, 07:23 PM

i believe knowledgable people say that the york is not a good candidate for conversion to 134.

it will leak from the higher pressure and not cool very well due to turning too slow.

tom w

peter811 · #6 06-01-2006, 02:05 AM

I would not convert your compressor to run with R134, because your ac can overheat, plus if you wanted to convert it back you would have to clean and flush the whole system.
I would just use Freeze12 because it is cheap and it works.

I found out that the previous owners of my 300D converted my Ac to R134 and in doing so it caused my ac compressor to leak and sieze up. Now if I want to convert it back to run with R12 I have to rip my whole system apart and clean and flush ever line. I think I have to spend about $800 on parts in order to restore my AC to factory spec's.

Motorhead · #7 06-01-2006, 04:42 AM

First of all, I would like to say that the arguments

about what is the best refrigerant to replace R12 is like the Oil debates on this site and about every other car/truck site like this. In my opinion..... R12 WAS and IS still the BEST refrigerant for the older, pre 90's, mobile(cars/trucks) A/C systems. R134 is not a very efficient refrigerant. It requires a larger system to achieve the same cooling. The Mercedes systems, especially in a wagon, are barely adequate.
I tried Freeze 12 in our old '84 300TDT and it was dismal at best.

I used Duracool(and YES it IS LEGAL in the states!) and the results were great. It runs at a lower pressure that even R12. I have a shop that is using it exclusively in Porsche 911's and is getting 37 degrees at the center outlets. It is has a larger molocule and doesn't seep from the hoses as easily as chloflorocarbon refrigerants.

YES Duracool is a Hydrocarbon base. People worry that it is flammable. It has an auto ignition point of 1630 degrees.

An average Mercedes system needs about 2.5, 6oz. cans to charge a system or about 15oz.

That is not very much as opposed to 15 gallons average of fuel, gas or diesel, that a car carries.

I have used it in My car, my Wifes car, and both of my Daughters cars. I would NEVER jepordize their safety!

I am more worried about some jerk-off running me over crossing a street!

AGAIN....... This is the GREAT debate!!!!

So now you all know my 2 cents worth!!

Freeze 12 is a mixture of 80% R134a and 20% R142b. Freeze 12 will separate in the system.

#8 06-01-2006, 10:20 AM

Motorhead,

The EPA seems to disagree with you about the legality of Duracool 12a? Or are you using another type?

Quote:

May hydrocarbon refrigerants be used to replace CFC-12, commonly referred to as "Freon® ," in cars?
No. It is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants like HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® as substitutes for CFC-12 in automobile or truck air conditioning under any circumstances.

I did a brief search for info on molecule size causing leaking, or why the compressor would work harder with r134a, but couldn't find anyting. Can somebody point me to some info about this?

cheers,
dan r.

EDIT: fixed link

alabbasi · #9 06-01-2006, 10:39 AM

I think the refrigerant in question here is R406a. It is propane based but non flammable. It's benefit is that it's a drop in for R12 as it can mix with the oil. Freeze12 is 80% R134a. If you were to convert you may be better off converting to R134a over Freeze12

I have some R406a at home and plan to use it on my 6.9 once I get of my lazy butt and fix the A/C. Right now, I consider the 6.9 as a big silver fat suit! You just get in it, and start sweating

.

I converted my Saab 92 900 Convertible to R134a and it worked like a champ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristar1959

I
HOWEVER. Another friend who is in our local Vol F.D. points out that Freeze-12 is made with either Butane or Propane...and there is the potential for augmented fires or explosion in a crash - not that the hoses and condensor are located up front in the grille or anything...

Motorhead · #10 06-01-2006, 12:26 PM

The duracool company has a web site. www.duracool.com . I have paperwork on the legalities and HC refrigerants are legal "drop ins" on 134a systems. They are also legal on r12 systems provided the systems high/low side fittings are changed over to the r134a style fittings. I also have a phone number that you can talk to them in Canada where it is produced. The call is free. 1-888-463-2665 ask for Larry in technical support.

Here is a quote from the EPA:
The USEPA FINAL RULE PUBLISHED APRIL 01, 1994 STATES "In this final rule, the Agency has determined that second generation replacements, if they are non-ozone depleting and are replacing non-ozone depleteing first generation alternatives(R134a), are exempt from reporting requirements under Section 612."
If Duracool is illegal to sell in the states then how is it that there are legitimate distributors through out the states selling this product?

I ask that all of the NAY SAYERS look up the site and call the manufacturer.

Think about it..... If you were DUPONT and had the MONOPOLY on the market (which they have had) you would do everything to fight the competition! Look at what is happening with BIG OIL companies!!!

OMEGAMAN · #11 06-01-2006, 12:26 PM

I used this in both my benz and the explorer and it works great http://www.es-refrigerants.com/

I dont worry about the flamability seems very unlikely that it would ignite. When I had a paint shop I used Anchor paint. It's waterborn and you reduce it with water and clean up with water. But since it has a flamability rating the fire department shut me down untill I got an explosion proof booth or changed paints. I don 't see any way that stuff could explode I think it's more of a technicality issue more that anything.

Tristar1959 · #12 06-01-2006, 01:13 PM

1. If Freeze12 is actually mostly (80%?) R134a, then why doesn't it cost almost as much as 134a? And why hasn't my stock system leaked down yet?
2. Is it then Duracool which is the hydrocarbon-based sub that my VFD friend was thinking of, rather than Freeze12?
3. If any of the other subs are flourocarbon-based, then how do they avoid EPA problems, or is it just the CHLOROflourocarbon-based R12 which sends those nasty chlorine catalytic molecules up there to repeatedly eat those darling little ozones which are intercepting the UV rays?

Can anyone who understands the chemistry involved sort this out for us?
How about a Bio major whose MCAT preps included some Organic Chem or Biochem?

Stan

#13 06-01-2006, 06:53 PM

Motorhead,

Yes, you are correct that duracool can be legally used to replace r134a in systems originally fitted with r134a. However, since july 13th, 1995 it has been illegal to use it in a system that originally had r12 (quote from epa page). Since Kyle is talking about york compressor, i'm assuming its an r12 system and therefore illegal to use with duracool 12a. Duracool 12a has legal uses (industrial as well), but the epa page that I linked to says its illegal to use to replace r12. I didn't find the EPA saying anything about fittings, but it sounds plausible. Check out the link if you're not sure, its working now. Regardless of what the EPA said in '94, in 05 they issued a statement about the dangers and illegalities of using hydrocarbon based AC (see below).

Tristar,

1.) I was wondering the same thing this morning: If freeze 12 is mostly r134a, why hasn't your system leaked down? I still want to see some hard(er) evidence that r134a will leak from a properly maintained r12 system. Not saying that it doesn't, but in my experience it (r134a) worked fine.

2.) Here is what the EPA says about duracool (otherwise known as HC-12a)

Quote:

What are HC-12a® and OZ-12®?
HC-12a® and OZ-12® brand hydrocarbon refrigerant blends are flammable refrigerants. Their primary components are hydrocarbons, which are flammable substances such as propane and butane.

Also, the EPA sent out this letter in april of '05 warning about hydrocarbons in AC systems. So, yeah, it sounds like your buddy was talking about stuff like duracool (HC 12a). Quote from letter:

Quote:

In the United States, it is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants to replace CFC-12 used in cars manufactured before 1994. Hydrocarbon refrigerants used in newer vehicles designed for refrigerant HFC-134a will void the air conditioner warranty and may endanger service technicians. Leaking air conditioning systems charged with hydrocarbons pose serious risks of fire or explosion under the hood or inside the passenger compartment.

I read (but can't find the link!) that the other stuff in freeze 12 helps make it useable with different types of oil that are likely already in the system. Also, I can find nowhere where it is called flammable. Its also EPA approved.

3.) Here is an explanation of how CFCs work. It looks like you are right, its the chlorine atom breaking off from the molecule (because of UV rays high up in the atmosphere) that is the objectionable part. I think this means Flourocarbons are ok, but i'm no bio/chem guy.

Omega,

The ES stuff is the same hc-12a forumla in duracool...hence its marketing as an 'industrial' refrigerent.

When I do my AC in a few weeks, i'll probably go with freeze 12 b/c its nonflamable, EPA approved and seems to play nice with older oils. I'll probably look at 406a as well, this page seems to have some info about it.

cheers,
dan r.

Tristar1959 · #14 06-01-2006, 11:14 PM

Dan,

Thanks for a nicely-organized recap/summary, with the salient points so well addressed.

We'll see how the Freeze12 holds up through one more summer, forthcoming - daughtergoddess's 280CE has a black interior in the Richmond, Virginia heat.
And it may also be the "well-maintained" that is critical - when we recharged the system, I had just replaced the seals, several of the hoses and the receiver-dryer, and it was well drawn down, inline lube input as with R12, as well as proper load of Freeze12, and I filled the crankcase to the proper level with appropriate cold-running oil.
Normal use may also be a factor - and I have her use the ACC-II with the compressor "on", even at moderate temps, for the dehumidifying factor and keeping it exercised.

Barring emergent failure, I shall report again in, say, mid-August, vis-a-vis leakdown.

Stan

Emmerich · #15 06-03-2006, 12:24 AM

Why hasn't anybody priced R12? Its cheap now demand has gone down and you know it will work properly. If all you care about is cheaply refilling a leaking system, then maybe you need to reevaluate your thought process. Fix the system of any leaks and put in R12. It won't leak, it will work and you will be happy.

Bandit gases are a false economy.