220Sb (W111) Engine "drops" when lifted - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

nhdoc · #1 06-01-2006, 05:46 PM

I noticed that when I put my '64 220Sb onto the lift the entire engine drops about 2". It appears that the front end/engine cradle is all attached and supported to the frame by two subframe mounts, but those "extend" when the tires have the weight taken off of them. Is this normal or are my subframe mounts bad/loose? I don't want the whole front end to fall off when I put it up in the air next time!

Arthur Dalton · #2 06-01-2006, 07:33 PM

The trick is to do one side at a time..

http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/W108Subframe

nhdoc · #3 06-01-2006, 08:46 PM

I don't really have any other problems such as clunking or wander...but is just the fact that the engine drops a sign that these mounts are bad?

Are they not supposed to "telescope" like mine do allowing the front end to lower when the weight is removed from the wheels?

Arthur Dalton · #4 06-01-2006, 09:13 PM

The sub frame should not move/drop..
It is common practice whenever working on these king pin style chassis to never let the front end hang or never jack from the body.. we always use the subframe to jack, as these old mounts are notorious for ripping right out of their mounts wih age..
If they were new , no problem, but 99% of any I have seen are shot...

MikeTangas · #5 06-01-2006, 09:31 PM

The sagging engine when lifted is yet another sign the subframe mounts need to be changed. Remember, the engine is cradled in the subframe and those two mounts are really the only things holding the engine in the bay.

Arthur Dalton · #6 06-01-2006, 09:37 PM

.. another sign is the front end sits lower when the mounts are collapsed/ripped..
See it all the time.

nhdoc · #7 06-02-2006, 07:14 AM

OK, thanks...so basically what you're saying is that when new the subframe mount is a single piece and now it is two pieces...so the entire weight of the front end hangs off those mounts if you put the car on a frame lift? Seems like a lot of load for them to bear.

So, once they have failed, what is actually preventing the front end from falling out when I lift the car on the frame? It's not the shocks, is it??

I guess I will put their replacement on my "to do" list.

-MD

Karsten · #8 06-02-2006, 10:24 AM

The car is actually not designed to be lifted that way and it is not a good idea to do it. It is actually potentially hanging by the shocks

Karsten

Arthur Dalton · #9 06-02-2006, 10:33 AM

I crindge everytime I see a kingpin/swing axle hanging off a car lift.
Also see the same guys topping off the rear differentials with the enclosed tube axles hanging .. then when it is back on the ground, the fluid comes out every seal in the rear , along with the vent.. Overfull.

nhdoc · #10 06-02-2006, 11:34 AM

So, where are the best lift points then, please let me know so I can do it right next time.

Is it just the kingpin design or are the later ones also not intended to be lifted this way?

#11 06-02-2006, 12:13 PM

It's true, they were not designed to be lifted by a four post lift. I hate to say this, but the best way to lift a kingpin Mercedes is on a drive on lift. They have a jack the can lift either end of the car properly if you have to remove the wheels. I cringe myself when I see a old timer up on a four post lift. Remember that the fan crunches into the shroud when you lift the car, so don't start the engine while the front wheels are off the ground. If you have air suspension the situation becomes more complicated. The suspension system needs to be locked and the vehicle lowered slowly to prevent damage when the aging suspension decides to trap your floor jack under the car when it is lowered, locked or not. I also make sure to pad the base of the jack in order to not dent the subframe when lifting the front with a floor jack.

nhdoc · #12 06-02-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Holmes III

It's true, they were not designed to be lifted by a four post lift...

I pulled out my 108/109/111/113 shop manual and low and behold MB has a photo of the recommended lift points on those chasses. These are the points I use with my lift, two fronts under the uni-body's "rails" and two rears on the attachment points where the rear suspension bolts to the body. So you can see my confusion here...not trying to cause problems, just trying to understand...if MB shows the car being lifted this exact way it would seem this is an acceptable practice. Drive-on lifts are not as flexible as the asymmetrical models like what I use, so I prefer to keep using it but just wanted to know if it's my car that is a problem or the lift method...I'm still confused about it though...sorry for being so thickheaded and thanks for the time you'all are taking to respond.

Arthur Dalton · #13 06-02-2006, 02:22 PM

Post # 4

nhdoc · #14 06-02-2006, 02:31 PM

OK, I guess I understand...the mounts, if like new should be able to support the subframe and lifting like MB shows in their shop manual should not be too much of a problem, but when old they separate, like mine, and allow the front end to hang...probably best not to even lift from the frame, but MB themselves says that's how to do it...of course that was when the cars were all a lot newer.

One last question. Does anyone know if the same subframe kit made for the later W108 chassis like the '72 280SEL will work on the earlier W111 like my '64? The part numbers seem to be the same in some sources I have seen but the only kits I can find available online are those listed for the W108 and it looks the same as what I have got...anyone know if the parts are interchangeable?

Tomguy · #15 06-02-2006, 02:39 PM

AFAIK, the 108 front suspension is identical to the 111's except maybe subframe size/shape. The bushings should be the same.