Quicker Ratio Steering?
 

Hello all. I am lucky enough to have a '69 280SE Coupe. It's a four-speed manual with limited slip, and weather permitting, I really enjoy driving her. Most folks in the MBCA seem to think it's sacrelige to even think about modifying these cars - but I prefer to DRIVE. Most of my background has been in smaller, most maneuverable sports cars. I like cars that corner and don't have much body roll. To that end, I am fitting the car with firmer road springs (available to order from John R. Olson), upgrading the dampers (shocks) and fitting larger diamer sway bars. My question concerns steering. My car has power steering (which is silent and works wonderfully) but the steering response is SSSSSLLLLLLOOOOOWWWWWWW compared to a rack and pinion system. I know that the 250/280 SL is built on basically the same floor pan (albeit a shortened version) and that the SLs were also available with power steering. Does anyone know if the steering box from an SL will fit the larger W111 cars - and if so, is the steering any "faster"?

I love spinning the wheel around about four times to pull into a parking lot - you can imagine what it would be like to try an autocross this baby!

Many thanks! Tom

i don't know about the sl box.

a smaller wheel will help some.

tom w

Yeah but you might regret stiffer springs, same as heavy duty bilsteins instead of 'comfort' billies get crummy reviews for transmitting every pebble in the road to the chassis. Although new springs and sway bar to spec is helluva good idea. Meanwhile the kingpin suspension is not known to sway, roll and yaw. Could be worn out subframe rubber bushings causing bulk of the grief.

And welcome to the forum, there's a bunch of 111 coupes and cabrios here treated as daily drivers.

correct me if I'm wrong, but the 111 (like the 108) has no rear swaybar. I'd start there. And before trying stiffer springs, try putting a rubber in between the spring coils to feel what they'd ride like. 3.5 front springs are stiffer and will fit easily on your 6-cyl with no mods.

Rear sway bar
 

I would be interested to see the outcome of installing a rear anti-sway bar on a 108 or 111 car. I bought a rear anti-sway bar from a 109 chassis car with the intent of installing it on my 3.5 coupe. This is a very low priority to me at this point but some day I want to do more research into adapting it to the 111 chassis. The rear trailing arms are different from a 109 and there is no accomodation for the sway bar. My other concern is the hydro-pneumatic compensator. The 109 car dosen't have one and I'm wondering how the handling will be influenced by the combination of the compensator AND the anti-sway bar. If you remove the compensator how do you adjust the ride height? Sounds like a lot of variables. Anyone out there done this?
Also-I installed a 14" Nardi wheel on my car. It feels sportier than the large original wheel and I heard it was a dealer installed option. It does block the gauges a little.

Tom:

I think you may have unreasonable expectations for your 111. Most folks quickly learn that the big MBs do not have "sports car" handling. This is a good thing. Most sports cars of the day had wretched stiff springs, shocks and anti-roll bars which made everyday living with them a chore. They were unpredictable and uncomfortable.

MBs by contrast were and are, by design, civilized and mature of nature and demeanor, as are most of their owners. This translates into an elegant vehicle with excellent road manners, long on comfort and short on vices that might detract from the pleasure of blowing the damn doors off impudent sports cars of lesser breeding.

Sure, the big Benz may lean in the corners, and demand an extra turn of the wheel in a tight parking space, but grab up some old copies of R&T or another enthusiast magazine of your preference and you will likely see a big MB sedan dumping a big can of whupass on competitors in the saloon racing classes. As to your steering, be content with the big wheel and extra turn lock to lock; yours is one of the few cars on the road that can pull a no-sweat U-turn on a narrow city street. Try that with one of the FWD rice rockets.

If you really want to improve your big Benz, replace those old hard bushings, get a new set of Bils, and put an extra 10 pounds of air in your tires....makes a world of difference and is a recommendation buried deep in the MB technical data handbook.

Keep the faith,

230/8

i have had numerous sets of bilstein hd or sport. i like them. i really can't tell much difference between them and standard ones.

tom w

Bilstein sport shocks
 

I'm at the stage where I'm choosing which shocks to purchase. Are the extra few $ worth it for the Bilstein HD or sport shocks? Will they ruin my ride? Any comments welcome.

If it was like 2 turns to full steering lock you'd be complaining about how hard it is to turn the wheel, methinks :)

I never liked the huge steering wheel on my 300D, at least not around town. On big trips its real nice but around town, too much.

Put a Nardi wooden wheel thats 2 inches smaller in diameter (i think mine is 14")and it really stiffened up the steering and the response is many many times better than the bus wheel.

Well, an properly operating late 60's MB beats its luxury rivals of the day;i.e. Cadillac, Lincoln, Imperial, Buick Electra, and Olds 98, to pieces. I've personally owned Caddys, Lincolns, and Olds from that era, and the first MB I drove was a 108, so I feel fair comparing the two. The MB is good, but it won't ever steer like a Vette or 911 or even a 107 SL (Although it will be close). I like my old MB for what it is, but modification is great, provided it works like its supposed to.
Good Luck, and God Bless,
Dave.

Tom,

If you really want to make some changes I would suggest you contact Cox Racing group in Seattle (503) 244-7342. European Car Magazine did a profile (Sept 96) on his 1971 280SE 3.5. He modified the suspension quite a bit. I contacted him as I too wanted to get better handleing on my 71 3.5. I purchased from him a very heavy front anti sway bar, and a full set of polyurethane bushings. This alone made a huge difference in the way the car handled. In the article he also modified the rear end, however it was more extreme and I did not want to go that far. If you like I can fax you a copy of the article from the magazine.

Good Luck.

Dave Benson

he has a source for urethane bushings for benzes?

i want some of those.

tom w

I don't have experience with upgrading MB suspensions, but I would echo that an upgraded (thicker) front sway bar is an easy thing to try and can make a huge difference. I replaced my 9/16 inch sway bar with a heavy duty 3/4 inch one (old factory sports option) on my '63 MGB and the handling improved dramatically. Car stays much flatter in front when cornering (as expected). Then I put adjustable gas shocks in the back, but kept the softer Armstrongs in the front. Stiffest setting was annoying and I kept it at an "average" setting, Poly-urethane bushings were standard in MGBGT V8s and now used in almost all restored MGBs front suspension. I highly recommend those. Reduces "clunking" and maintenance, but makes you feel vibrations on road a bit more too (at least in the MG). You may also need a press or vice to get them on. Would love to get some for the Benz one day when I do a suspension overhaul.

Bert
'70 111 280SE/c 3.5 (daily driver stickshift) + '63 MGB + '73 MGBGTV8

you could get the gearbox out of a 240d they are pretty fast turners

Cox Racing
 

Here is the magazine article and a link to Cox Racing:

http://www.coxracingroup.com/projects.html

I purchased Cox's Poly bushings and stainless braided brake lines but have not evaluated then yet as my car is not presently drivable. I spoke with Andrew a few times about his suspension upgrades and specifically about the rear anti sway bar. He was not very specific but said that it was from a 109.
I think that suspension upgrades will quickly be limited by the original tires/wheels. I installed 16X8" wheels and 55 series tires on my coupe. Without any suspension upgrades the improvement in handling and stability was incredible.
The wheels are chrome 129 600sl alloys and look very similar to the original hubcaps. I can quickly replace them with the originals if I need to.