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  #31  
Old 11-07-2007, 08:03 AM
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Boring Story

Last night in class, the instructor and I set up the engine on the boring machine. We had to dismount it due to the crud on the bottom flange and I spent some time cleaning said flange. Once clean, the block was level and ready for some boring action. Well, since the cylinders are so small, he had trouble finding the right tool holder and when he did, it wouldn't fit into the boring head . He usually deals with US V8's which have much larger cylinders. He's going to check out the mounting instructions and I'll go over to the school tonight for a boring time. I'll take my camera as well. I'm sure you guys want to see my boring pictures.

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Warren

Currently 1965 220Sb, 2002 FORD Crown Vic Police Interceptor

Had 1965 220SEb, 1967 230S, 280SE 4.5, 300SE (W126), 420SEL

ENTER > = (HP RPN)

Not part of the in-crowd since 1952.

Last edited by wbain5280; 11-07-2007 at 08:11 AM.
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  #32  
Old 11-07-2007, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbain5280 View Post
I'll take my camera as well. I'm sure you guys want to see my boring pictures.
OUCH!! You should be ashamed of yourself!
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  #33  
Old 11-07-2007, 09:48 AM
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Did you find a new piston, or are you going to sleeve the block?
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  #34  
Old 11-07-2007, 10:07 AM
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I'm going to need all new pistons. We're starting with cyl 6, the worst one, to determine the oversize required. Please see the first set of pics.
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Warren

Currently 1965 220Sb, 2002 FORD Crown Vic Police Interceptor

Had 1965 220SEb, 1967 230S, 280SE 4.5, 300SE (W126), 420SEL

ENTER > = (HP RPN)

Not part of the in-crowd since 1952.
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  #35  
Old 11-08-2007, 07:43 AM
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Boring Pictures

Last night I went to the school and the instructor had set the boring machine up and he bored out cyl 6 to .0015 over. The other 5 will be taken out by honing. Here are some pics.












The Master (not me):



Finished product.



For comparison.




Bonus Pics: The first is a VW crank, the second is a Porsche 944T crank with a destroyed bearing, which is depisited around the crank journal.




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Regards

Warren

Currently 1965 220Sb, 2002 FORD Crown Vic Police Interceptor

Had 1965 220SEb, 1967 230S, 280SE 4.5, 300SE (W126), 420SEL

ENTER > = (HP RPN)

Not part of the in-crowd since 1952.
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  #36  
Old 11-08-2007, 08:05 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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I don't know what is meant by sleeves being incompatible with the fine steel in a mercedes block.

you should be able to get sleeves that are compatible, sleeve it to a bit undersize and then bore and hone to fit your pistons precisely. At least that is what is done on the diesels.

Did you check to see what oversize pistons are available?

Tom W
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #37  
Old 11-08-2007, 11:20 AM
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Oversize pistons are available for 80.5, 81, 81.5 mm.
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Regards

Warren

Currently 1965 220Sb, 2002 FORD Crown Vic Police Interceptor

Had 1965 220SEb, 1967 230S, 280SE 4.5, 300SE (W126), 420SEL

ENTER > = (HP RPN)

Not part of the in-crowd since 1952.
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  #38  
Old 11-16-2007, 07:49 PM
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Boring Cell Phone Pics

In my last class, I forgot my camera, so I had to use my cell phone.

More boring pics. There is a slight shadow inder the ring ridge.




The Boring operation, on every other cylinder so the heat doesn't affect the block.




Boring finished, on to honing



Boring measurement



Honing...

__________________
Regards

Warren

Currently 1965 220Sb, 2002 FORD Crown Vic Police Interceptor

Had 1965 220SEb, 1967 230S, 280SE 4.5, 300SE (W126), 420SEL

ENTER > = (HP RPN)

Not part of the in-crowd since 1952.
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  #39  
Old 11-16-2007, 07:58 PM
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That's a great school you have. I think I would have been better served by a course in engine machining vs 2 years of Latin.
Were did you find pistons for that old gal?
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  #40  
Old 11-16-2007, 08:42 PM
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I don't have them yet.
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Regards

Warren

Currently 1965 220Sb, 2002 FORD Crown Vic Police Interceptor

Had 1965 220SEb, 1967 230S, 280SE 4.5, 300SE (W126), 420SEL

ENTER > = (HP RPN)

Not part of the in-crowd since 1952.
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  #41  
Old 11-16-2007, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbain5280 View Post
I don't have them yet.
How can you size the bore without the pistons?
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  #42  
Old 11-16-2007, 10:24 PM
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gimme a low-tech 240D
 
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Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
I don't know what is meant by sleeves being incompatible with the fine steel in a mercedes block.
Tom, M180 factory block is sleeveless for all intents and purposes. Instead high nickel content core is 'mated' to iron walls through heat process you wouldnt believe. Tapered too, merged and mated to iron bore. Then honed and building up glaze over years of operation to shine like glass. Cores caint be knocked out, hence "resleeving" would amount to boring out nickel cores and fitting sleeves to already existing high nickel content core - or sleeving to "sleeves" if you would. Advantages of nickel core / iron block bore permanently mated and merged include improved heat dissipation among other things. An amazing feat of automobile machining and mating of different metalurgies went into stuttgart built m180's. Dunno if it's ever been duplicated anywhere else or ever again.

Back in the day, it was common practice to get 250k+ miles out of original m180 pistons and bores after cyl head work typically done at/near 135k. Amazing longevity for the era, unrivalled until emergence of 4.5's. After wearing out it was common recommended practice to replace the entire shortblock instead of rebuilding partly because recoring the block is outa the question. I doubt they even made aftermarket sleeves for m180's. Rings and pistons yes, but not sleeves that i'm aware of.

WBain, thanks for the picts. It's an amazing undertaking yer accomplishing. Have ye checked out hyroglyph markings on piston crowns? I was told long time ago each set is individually ballanced and glyph markings refer to weight of each.
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'80 300SD/ w116
'79 240D 4-spd
'71 750cc Guzzi

previously owned:

'83 240D 4-spd
'77 280SEL 4-spd
'74 280/8
'72 250/8
'65 220Sb 4-spd
'63 220Sb 4-spd
'63 190c 4-spd
'61 220Sb 4-spd
'60 190b 4-spd
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  #43  
Old 11-16-2007, 10:53 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselDog View Post
Tom, M180 factory block is sleeveless for all intents and purposes. Instead high nickel content core is 'mated' to iron walls through heat process you wouldnt believe. Tapered too, merged and mated to iron bore. Then honed and building up glaze over years of operation to shine like glass. Cores caint be knocked out, hence "resleeving" would amount to boring out nickel cores and fitting sleeves to already existing high nickel content core - or sleeving to "sleeves" if you would. Advantages of nickel core / iron block bore permanently mated and merged include improved heat dissipation among other things. An amazing feat of automobile machining and mating of different metalurgies went into stuttgart built m180's. Dunno if it's ever been duplicated anywhere else or ever again.

Back in the day, it was common practice to get 250k+ miles out of original m180 pistons and bores after cyl head work typically done at/near 135k. Amazing longevity for the era, unrivalled until emergence of 4.5's. After wearing out it was common recommended practice to replace the entire shortblock instead of rebuilding partly because recoring the block is outa the question. I doubt they even made aftermarket sleeves for m180's. Rings and pistons yes, but not sleeves that i'm aware of.

WBain, thanks for the picts. It's an amazing undertaking yer accomplishing. Have ye checked out hyroglyph markings on piston crowns? I was told long time ago each set is individually ballanced and glyph markings refer to weight of each.

So are you saying the bores are too hard to bore?

Tom W
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #44  
Old 11-17-2007, 12:25 AM
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gimme a low-tech 240D
 
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Posts: 3,602
More like you'd end up with surfaces lacking teeth to grip new sleeves. I think it's question of heat dissipation between nickel and iron opposed to nickel and nickel. Look at the pics and you'll see 1/4" high nickel content cores mated to iron block. I caint see anybody milling em out and knocking in sleeves, can you? Nevermind the fact that cores are tapered where mated to iron bores. Oversized pistons up to 1.5 were meant for rebored existing cores not for sleeves. Swede's built after-market soft metal rings specially for high mileage m180's as interim measure to pull another 80k miles beyond being nearly worn out at/near 250k miles or so. M180 being sleeveless engines along with perfectly ballanced and matched pistons, rods and crankshaft gave em the ballsiest longevity among inline 6 cyl's of their day. Piston slap and spun crank bearings like on that porsche among em was unheard of.

If they had weak link, it was that nobody knew how to follow Stuttgart specs when doing routine once-in-lifetime cyl head work at about 135k miles. Otherwise look at the Stuttgart badge in pics with serial number. The same German technology that made sleeveless m180 also developed exceptional cannon and rifle bores. Even today you'll be pressed to find better rifle than an old 8mm Mauser.

Sorry everybody for the rant, am drinkin tonite - grew up with 220Sb's as teenager back in mid/late 1970's. But that was when car's were considered "old" beyond 10 yrs. And most vehilces with 100k+ miles was considered antient.

(edit: wbain, i think you've got the toughest project in the class - matching specs and tolerances that caint ever be measured tight enough. Probly take normal accepted clearances and divide em by half to replicate original specs.
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'80 300SD/ w116
'79 240D 4-spd
'71 750cc Guzzi

previously owned:

'83 240D 4-spd
'77 280SEL 4-spd
'74 280/8
'72 250/8
'65 220Sb 4-spd
'63 220Sb 4-spd
'63 190c 4-spd
'61 220Sb 4-spd
'60 190b 4-spd

Last edited by 300SDog; 11-17-2007 at 12:48 AM.
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  #45  
Old 11-17-2007, 06:27 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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I am still not following you. The sleeves don't seem to me to be held in by tooth in the block. They are put in cold and when they expand they are tight in there. But maybe there is something I don't know here.

And to swede, don't guess on clearances get the book and follow them strictly.

Tom W

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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