Thinking of getting an R12 recovery machine - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

alabbasi · #1 10-09-2007, 10:30 PM

I've been toying with the idea of buying an R12 recovery machine from a friend of mine who runs a shop and has very little use for it nowadays.

The idea is to provide R12 to people with older cars at a lower cost then what the shops charge. Say $30/lbs which is around the same price as what people charge for R134 at the local lube.

The purpose of this experiment is to help cover the costs of storing my cars at the workshop.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this idea.

Todd Miller · #2 10-10-2007, 12:21 AM

Save your money and start converting the cars to "Freeze 12." It requires nothing more than evacuating the R12 system, putting in a few ounces of synthetic Ester 100 oil, and then adding the Freeze 12. It runs about $7/can on ebay if you buy a case of it, requires no EPA certs, and because the molecules are much larger than R134a it cools better and doesn't leak out so easily. Add some fluorescent dye and send the car down the road with a happy owner!

alabbasi · #3 10-10-2007, 12:23 AM

isn't freeze 12 80% R134?

Todd Miller · #4 10-10-2007, 12:27 AM

I don't know......talk to me!

alabbasi · #5 10-10-2007, 12:36 AM

OK Freeze12 is 80% R12 so if your going to do a conversion with Freeze 12, You may as well go to R134. I converted a Saab 900 to R134 and it would turn my fingers blue. However every expert that I speak to says to stick to R12 on a Mercedes as R134 doesn't cool as well.

I've used R406a before which is propane based and it works well but the machine is for R12.

ggenovez · #6 10-10-2007, 01:37 AM

Freeze-12 is not 80% Freon. Freon has bee banned from the us since the early 90's. It's R-134 based.

Back to the original question, why not build you're own Evac system. Go to a appliance junk yard and pull the compressor from any fridge. This has it's own built in motor. Attach Pipe fittings (R-12, R22). TADA Home made system.

Yes, you can convert your R-12 to a R-134 and get it to blow out 38'. You don't want the black death kits. You should replace your dryer, o-rings and expansion valve as well as drain the oil out of the compressor and replace it with PAG.

This is for MAXIMUM life.

The other option is to use a propane and butane (I think) google it if you're interested. Illigal in most states.

The problem with mixture like Freeze 12, R406a, home made propane mix... is usualy the lighter gas escapes and the system does not run properly. You can't just add more, you need to evac and start from scratch.

Oh yeah, you can get your R-12 license for about 20 buck online open book test.

Good luck.

nhdoc · #7 10-10-2007, 07:30 AM

I'd think in Texas you would find lots of people with older cars who would be happy to find someone that would provide a service to keep them using R12. The fact is none of the HFC replacements work as well as the CFC refrigerant in these systems for a number of reasons. Now that R12 has come down in price and is in plentiful supply there is no good reason to convert a perfectly good R12 system to R134a or any other substitute.

Once they find out that R134a causes some other environmental calamity it too will be banned...it's only a matter of time. Every time they think they have found a "safe" solution to a practical problem it turns out to be incorrect (think of lead, asbestos, MBTE, TCE, the list goes on and on). Any time they introduce a new compound into the environment in the kind of quantities that R134a is used in there are always unintended consequences.

alabbasi · #8 10-10-2007, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggenovez

Freeze-12 is not 80% Freon. Freon has bee banned from the us since the early 90's. It's R-134 based..

Typo on my part, I mean to say it's 80% R134

JimFreeh · #9 10-10-2007, 01:35 PM

I built my own personal evac/recovery system.

Get a reefer compressor and silver solder on a couple of 1/4" flare fittings, then reuse an old R-12 30 lb can for a storage container.

I also use a couple of inline cylindrical filters.

Works great, costs little, and can also be used as an evacuator.

You'll also need a manifold gage set, I've got both R-12 and R134a, and I made a jumper hose with end R-12 and the other R-134a so I could reuse my R-12 scavenger with the R-134a manifold.

: I use the jumper to get from the R-134a manifold to the vacuum pump. Have not had to dump a full R-134a system yet, so I've only got the system set up for R-12 downstream of the pump.....

Jim

nhdoc · #10 10-10-2007, 03:13 PM

I don't have a recovery machine but I have transfused R12 from one car to another. I basically use the "donor" car like a big can of R12 and run a hose from one of its taps to the suction side of the "recipient" car, then I run the compressor on the recipient car to draw out the R12 from the donor. It basically will pull nearly all of the R12 out though I suppose the risk of cross contamination exists since I don't filter the stuff as it passes from one car to another. It is only drawing vaopr though, not liquid so I think much of the crud would stay put in the donor car's system...FWIW that's my tip of the day.

ggenovez · #11 10-10-2007, 09:07 PM

Hey Jim,

what kind of filters are you using?

Tony H · #12 10-15-2007, 11:01 PM

Do you have some way of purifing the recovered R-12 to remove oil, air, moisture and mixes of different refrigerants installed over the years by PO's?
I wish you success with your endeavor. I am adding A/C to my 3.5 coupe and have done considerable research on what it will take to do a proper job. It's much more involved that I originally believed.
Tony

Emmerich · #13 10-15-2007, 11:20 PM

1) R12 is cheap
2) R12 is not illegal to sell or use if you have a license. There is about 100 year supply from Dupont still out there. Low demand dropped the price.
3) Bandit gases are crap (Freeze 12) - most shops will turn you away if they test your system and you don't have r12 or R134 in your car
4) Any hydrocarbon based coolant is STUPID.
5) Every gas requires its own special set of fittings, by law. So the "dump it in and go" nonsense is illegal.
6) Most indie shops still have R12 machines, and a lot of them handle both R12 and R134 so should not be a problem.
7) Converting to R134 requires (as mentioned previously) changing some components to do it right.
8) The size of the molecule has no bearing on cooling capability.

JimFreeh · #14 10-16-2007, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggenovez

Hey Jim,

what kind of filters are you using?

I bought a couple of small inline cylindrical shaped generic A/C filters at my local HVAC supply shop. Uses the same 1/4" flare fitting as the R-12 charging manifold.

I install them (they are directional) one way or the other depending upon what I'm doing at the time.

I use a couple of short jumper lines and place the filters between the vacuum pump (nee compressor) and the 30lb storage bottle.