Hi guys!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm so glad to hear that you have been thinking of me!!!

I FINALLY got back into my 1969 250/8, mainly because I had a VERY knowledgeable MB guy drop into town to help me....

Now....the car will not only START, but DRIVE!!!!!!!!!!! Can anyone believe it???? I actually drove it out of the garage (at which I discovered that the transmission seems ok...whew!) AND....if anyone remembers, the engine wouldn't REV before....it totally revs now!! (up to 4500rpms!!)

The problem was ultimately TIMING...it was WAY off (I mean WAY!!) It ends up that there are two sets of marks on the pulley and the PO had the timing set to the WRONG MARKS!

BUT....all is not ****z and giggles....the car still has some probREMS....
First off, I still have a very bad cylinder....this bad cylinder is making the air flow the carbs uneven and it's way hard to sync them...but more importantly than that, the carburetors may be jacked up. They seem to do different things and sometimes (?) make the car stall upon acceleration. All of this will be better described by ************************CTH****************************, who is the HERO of the world and is who spent a HOT AFTERNOON with me!! He IS da man! (to quote Chuck!) WOW!!! CTH really knows!!!!!!!!CTH also checked out my BODY and thought it was in pretty good shape too....

So...the car RUNS!!!!!!!! But does not run well enough to drive.....yet!
I'm not even sure what comes next!

~Christy

I am in Denver for a week on a business trip. I got my admin to arrange the trip with a little 10 hour stopover in pittsburg, where I met Christy, her husband Paul, their kids PJ and Abby, and Christy's parents (hi Sam!).

We started from the begining, with me giving the car a simple walk around. Christy does indeed have a nice body, a hunter green, which is most definitely a respray covering over some body work. There are only two ugly spots; one fender has some rot and a rear quarter panel wasn't repaired quite perfectly. But, it's a VERY nice car.

Of course, after that, we just sat in the car and talked strategy. I carried with me a small selection of specialized tools...

- Valve compressor
- The two funny crows foot wrenches for adjusting the clearance (didn't remember which one did the straight 6's so I took both)
- My good digital meter
- My digital camera (I took pictures)
- A carb synchronizer (the 40$ one from JC-?hitney).
- An adapter hood (poorly made from Baum tools; shame on them).

Between my set of specialty tools and Paul's toolkit, we came up short one very small 1/2" extension rod for the 28mm socket, needed to hand crank the motor.

While discussing how to tackle the car, I was very surprised by the interior of Christy's car. There is NO wood. I have NEVER seen an old benz with ZERO wood. The whole dash was a vinyl material. Even the glove box lid was a plastic with this black coating. The door panels were a matching material. Has anybody else ever seen this before?

We decided to do the following:
Step 1, static time the motor.
Step 2, get a sense of the dynamic timing at starter speed.
Step 3, start the car (well, that or guess a lot).

Since we don't have the right extension, we add, step 0, visit sears and buy a tool.

A little bit of a hand crank job later, we show what we already knew, that the timing chain shows a 3-4 degree stretch, and that at the static level everything was fine.

We're splitting the work, I'm making sure Christy has hand in everything. It sure won't help for me to do it and her not picking up anything. The first hurdle was getting the gasket back on the valve cover. You can struggle with it, or it can be easy. For me, the easy way is to just throw the gasket and cover on, and then get the corner by the distributor right (just lift the cover a half inch and seat the gasket to it and let it slide back down). do the same to the other two front corners. Wiggle the cover forward and back and the thing just seats itself. You might have to coax it in the middle, don't lift the front again, this time lift the back, but only if you have to.

We then spend 2 minutes figuring out which of 3 timing lights work (oops). The best was the kind that slips into the cap and then the wire plugs on top. Of course, the brand new plug wires don't fit into the little wobbly spring and the spring doesn't sit snuggly in the cap. Before we go back to sears to blow 50$ on a new, inductive timing light, we realize that Christy still has the old wires (which weren't all that old it turns out) and the old #1 wire will indeed work with this timing light.

With Christy at the wheel and me under the hood, the 200rpm timing of her motor is something like 40BTDC. That'a a wee bit off the 4BTDC I was expecting. So, now we need a 5mm allen key to set the timing. Whoops. I forgot to include that tool in the run through we did before the trip to sears. We grab an allen key at random from the tool box, and it sure seems close to 5mm, but I don't want to try it at first, since it's not marked and could be an SAE key and it will strip th bolt when I put pressure on it. We find LOTS of SAE keys and no metric ones, so this one random key is not something I'm eager to try. Christy checked a few more places and while she was looking, I said what the duck and tried it. Sure enough, it's works. We spent 20 minutes looking for nothing. Back at starter speed, a major twist to the distributor puts the timing back in the right ball park.

I quickly put the #1 wire back where it belongs and add a shot of ether to the carb and tell Christy to turn the key. She is floored when it starts right up. We let the car warm up in the garage, while we clear the area in front of the car so it can be driven under its own power onto the driveway. I closed the hood, joined Christy in the car as shotgun, and we drove off into the wild blue yonder. OK, in reality, we only went 20 feet, but she drove it. Of course, the house now stinks and the garage is funky, but we have some wonderful warm sunshine in which to go to town.

We spent a lot of time adjusting things back and forth, sometimes making it worse, sometimes making it better. I don't want to get to wild, since I'm outta here by 6:15. We had a series of little hurdles, like Paul had put the big o-rings on the table for us to find in plain sight. BUT, they were sitting on top of something else that was round, so we totally missed them sitting under our noses. The adjustment hood is useless without them. What's worse, is that this fool hood from Baum (I just picked it up a few weeks ago), was mis-cast, leaving a slight warp on the bottom. You have to put your weight into it to get it to seal on the bottom. When I get back from Denver, it goes back to baum for a replacement.

I settle on two basic problems and perhaps 3 possible causes.

- If you use a ballpoint pen to close the rear idle air bore, the RPMs rise, not fall. Whenever that has happened to me in the past, it has ment a clogged carb in some way. There is no time to take the carb apart today.
- If you close the front idle air bore, there is no change at all. That's a new symptom for me. Is the car running exclusively on the rear carb? Can't be.
- I can't get the airflow through the carbs to be anything like balanced. ANY adjustment seems to make it worse. The state at which I left, was a car that can't accelerate past idle at all. It's definitely worse than the morning.

The three things to explore next...

- The tank is low on gas. Did we clog the carbs? Christy, is going to pull the front carb apart to look into the bowl. Hopefully she won't find a flood of sediment.
- This car still has a fresh air pump. I've never actually seen one installed (I've found a few in the trunk over the years). There's a big-assed union on the intake manifold, and fittings in the block near the plugs. We don't know the state of the system at all. Nor do I know what its operating parameters are. We didn't have time to review the CD. Christy is going to do the research on it while I'm here. Can somebody out there with the CD look too? Whoever finds it first, can post the details here so I can read it while on the trip.
- something else entirely (fill in the blank). The fuel pump obviously works, the timing isn't perfect (can't get back to 4500 RPM to check it), and compression on cylinder 3 sucks (after a valve clearance adjustment, it's still 90 dry and 120 wet; the others are 160).


-CTH

__________________
- cth350@gmail.com
http://www.111lakeside.com/

You guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Since the car will actually start and drive, I couldn't resist pulling her out of the garage today to give her a much needed bath. She is GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!! Gleaming in the sun!!!!!!!!!! I've been waiting to shine this car up for MONTHS!!!! WOW...

But...

MAJOR PROBLEM....our driveway is sloped. Well, it's somewhat level for about a car-length, then it slopes somewhat drastically...so...I start the engine, all the while KNOWING I can back her into the garage, since we did it yesterday....
but....here's what happened.
She started right up and I could rev the engine in park. When I put the car into reverse, the car idles nice. When I step on the accelerator pedal, IT DIES.!!! Actually, if I BREATHE on the gas pedal IT DIES!!!! AND of course lunges forward about 2 feet!!!! I tried this about 3 times.... GUYS.........I AM HALFWAY DOWN THE DRIVEWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Paul's thought was to rev it in park and DROP it into reverse and burn rubber all the way to the garage. My thought was that I would DROP the transmission!!!! BUT I tried it anyways....and...NOW the car won't even rev in park. (Which makes no sense, since it did 2 minutes ago!?)So it's a no-go.
I'm sure someone is thinking "Who cares. Leave it in the driveway." BUT the friggin' driver's side window is BUSTED and won't raise!!!! AND it pains me to put a BAG over the window!!!!! Not to mention, our neighbors will call the POLICE if there is a bag over the window!!!! (Freaks!)

So...the question is this...does this sound like a clogged carburetor problem? Or a broken beyond repair carburetor???

And..the statement is this...I should have worked on the carburetors today instead of making the car so pretty...but I just couldn't help myself!

~Christy

Hi!

I got the car back into the garage....the HARD way. Both Paul and I were happy to find the dandy little tow hook at the rear of the car! That kept him from tying a rope to the bumper..hee hee..

So, it only made sense to tear into the driver's side door panel and start fixing that. I really didn't think the job would be THAT big of a deal. But I haven't figured out exactly what is wrong with the window yet. It's a manual type window crank (non-powered)
The window can be pulled up and will stay up, but I (obviously) need the option of rolling it back DOWN and back UP again, WITH the panel intact.
So...when I turn the crank, it makes a THUD with every revolution and the window does not go up...
It seems to me that the THUD comes from directly behind the crank-er....this part is located behind a solid piece of metal and isn't visible. Around the area are 4 bolts, that seem like if removed, the parts out of view could drop down to an area where I could see them.
I'm afraid that if I go ahead and take off the bolts, let the "unit" drop, I won't know how it's supposed to fit back up behind the metal obstrucion.

What I am trying to say is I'm sure I can take it apart, but I'm not too sure that I can put it back together.

Does anyone know what part may need to be repaired?

And has anyone ever done this job before?

Help!!
~Christy

AWWWRIIIIIGHT!!!
CTH - Udaman (as usual)!

I have one suggestion to try to get your car moving under its own power. It's bizarre, but based on my experience with the 280S.

Find two reasonably clean shop rags. Fold them in half twice. Remove the air cleaner and put a rag on the rear carb and try to start the engine. If that doesn't work try the front, then both carbs.

What I think is going on is that you have still have serious vacuum leaks which are causing the engine to run lean. By putting the rags on the carbs you are restricting the air flow and richening the mixture thus making the engine run better. Worked for me.

I am on vacation, but I have my notebook and the CD with me. I am not finding much on the air pump, though. All the test procedures says is to "unhook the hose from the air cleaner and gradually increase RPM to 3450 RPM." The air flow is supposed to stop at 3450 RPM.

This does not sound like Christy's setup at all.

Chuck

__________________
Chuck Taylor
Falls Church VA
'66 200, '66 230SL, '96 SL500. Sold: '81 380SL, '86 300E, '72 250C, '95 C220, 3 '84 280SL's '90 420SEL, '72 280SE, '73 280C, '78 280SE, '70 280SL, '77 450SL, '85 380SL, '87 560SL, '85 380SL, '72 350SL, '96 S500 Coupe

BTW -

Did you follow Dan Taylor's suggestion and sand your top plates to remove the warpage? It would also be a good idea to do the same thing to the spacers under the carbs.

Chuck

Rather than use a rag, I just used my hand. Closing either carb off entirely shuts down the engine. It's shaky at this point with an idle about 700rpm.

Touching the gas pedal, in gear or out most definitely shuts it down. I was able to get the RPMs up by VERY, VERY slowly advancing the throttle (and having Christy restart the car about a dozen times). The car REALLY hates the 800-1500 RPM range right now.

Christy, please tell me that it will start again, once the engine gets back to being cold. You might have to give it one shot of starting fluid. (oh, and if you get the chance, buy another can of fluid. We used a lot of it Saturday).

-CTH

__________________
- cth350@gmail.com
http://www.111lakeside.com/

CTH..

Absolutely! She starts RIGHT up everytime...and seems like she'd idle forever...

Like I mentioned before, it seemed like when the engine was cold, I could actually accelerate and rev the engine in PARK. It was when I put it in gear, she'd STILL idle (and sounded good to boot), but as soon as I touch the gas (barely!) she starts choking out. If I quickly let back off of the gas pedal, rpm's would go back up and she'd idle smoothly again.

AND....I THOUGHT that I lightly hit the gas to drive the car out of the garage. I'm sure I didn't merely coast. AND it didn't stall then.....Hhhhhmmmmmmm....like I said I did DRIVE it out of the garage!

I think if we fooled around some more, WITH THE CARBS (hee hee), we could get this car to work!

I've got to finish this window tonight!!!

~Christy

Hi Guys!!

I did it! I fixed the window!!! It now rolls up!!! Woo Hoo!!


I propped up the window and went ahead and removed the 4 bolts I had previously mentioned and the whole crank mechanism basically came out. There was a plastic nut that was stripped out and didn't work right anymore. Luckily the PO had half-way finished this job already and he had constructed a part out of washers and a metal bolt, that works perfectly. I WAS a bit skeptical of this jerry-rigged part, but I think it'll be a-ok! It seems much sturdier than the plastic predecessor. I'm so glad that the window works!!!

I DID it!!!


~Christy

Hi Christy and the gang.

I've been reading this thread with interest. I don't have a vintage MB, but I used to fool around with carb's 'way back when.'

I remember some carbs had ports for fuel just above the 'high' end of the throttle butterfly. When you'd 'tip in' or move the the butterfly ever so slightly, the upper port would be exposed to vacuum and more fuel could mix in with the airstream. This port was to help BEFORE the main venturi/jets would see enough airflow and become active. In some cases it was a slotted idle mixture port rather than separate ports.

Anyway, if those ports, or the passages leading to them were plugged the car would lean out, sometimes fatally, just off idle. Sometimes I could smack the throttle to activate the accelerator pump and get the engine up to main jet speed, but off-idle would be deadly.

I don't know if this will help, but perhaps others more familiar with your MB carbs can check and confirm or deny.

Best of luck and keep up the good work and your spirits. I'm currently trying to get a 20-year old Honda mini-trail running. My brother-in-law says he doesen't remember if it ever ran, but it was a good deal when he got it 20 years ago.... so I feel your pain.

BCingU, Jim

Good to hear its running again. Can't help with the throttle problem but I can give testimony to the interior question. My '69 230/8 has the same dash, the leather textured dark blue vinyl, no wood.

Good luck with the carbs.

Mark

Ok...I'm having a bit of trouble with this research.

The information I am looking for, on my CD, is NOT available for my car...BUT, they claim that it IS available for the 1974 model. So...I look at that stuff and it doesn't appear to be even CLOSE to my car.

AND...what the heck AM I looking for, btw??? The "big-assed union". What is that called?? Would that be "Check air injection"?? I can't find that unit under carburetor systems or under cooling systems. It's part of emissions control, right? (Am I sounding like a moron or what!?). I just thought that by 1974, the emissions systems had become way different than a 1969...

I'm (obviously!) confused...

HELP!!
~Christy

Oh...and btw, Chuck...I DIDN'T sand the plates on my carbs. When I first put them back on the car, there was a bit of gas seepage between the plates. Does that matter?

Christy,

Sorry if I was vague. A union is where one pipe joins another. The big one I was referring to is that large nut dead center of the two carbs that has the pipe comming out.

I know there is an update to the basic service manuals that covers the US emissions control features (I have it at home on paper). But I don't know if that update is on the CD, nor do I know if that update mentions the tidbits about your system. If you can't find it by wandering around the 1970 model cars and sections 7 or 14, then it's not there on the CD. It's probably titled "emissions control" or "air pump".

-CTH

__________________
- cth350@gmail.com
http://www.111lakeside.com/

My '69 230/8 still has its air pump installed and it appears to function still (well I should say it doesn't show any outward signs of NOT working). The car was indeed owned by a little old lady who, I suspect fixed these kinds of things rather than removing them. If you need me to look at anything on mine to offer as a comparison to how yours is set up or functioning, let me know.

Mark

1. The only reference to the air pump on the CD was in the Maintenance Section. I know that there is an illustration in the Parts catalog, and I can check that when I get home tomorrow.

2. I would make sure that the spacers are good and flat since it sounds like you still have a vacuum leak. The prime suspects are the top cover and the spacers. The seepage is suspicious.

Chuck