It Has Begun (250CE restoration Thread.) - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

alabbasi · #61 02-17-2010, 01:27 PM

go on www.autobody101.com and see if there is any local painter in your area that's willing to do some side work.

JiveTurkey · #62 02-22-2010, 07:25 PM

Actually had a chance to work on my car today!!

I cleaned up some of the rusty areas I cut out in preperation for welding in a patch panel. I then absconded to tractor supply and Advance Autoparts on a quest to acquire some cheap fixes to my problems.

First problem SOLVED!
My rear springs basically sucked, but the shocks function well enough and the stickers on them have a recent date. I've deduced the rubber pads in the spring towers needed to be replaced. I don't like coil spring compressors, and I'm not willing to try the "two jack" method to remove a spring (I enjoy being alive.) Today I bought some of the "small" spring helpers from Advance autoparts. BINGO! They're small dense rubber blocks with indents in the top and bottom so they can be slid between the coils of the spring when the car is jacked up.
I knew it wouldn't be that easy. Even the small ones were too big to fit between my coils, so I cut them with a hacksaw and ground a new groove in that side of the rubber for the coil. I heated the area I cut to "seal" that end again. I pretty much reduced them in height by one half. They then fit very well, and I positioned one on each side of the spring for both rear coils in the middle of the spring. It seems to be a perfect stopgap method until I have the time to properly repair (or replace) the coils at a (much) later date. It bumped the ride height up so that Wilma is level again and no longer drags her -industrial sized- ass around town. I'll comment on handling at a later date but I think it's going to be just right.

Second Problem (probaby) solved!!
I bought some rust converter based on a recomendation from the Advance manager who was actually a knowledgeable cool dude. Very unlike the average chain store employee. I'm going to employ it on the inside of my fenders where I have some surface rust. It converts it into a sandable primer. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Third Problem SOLVED!
I bought paint and primer today, and I have two ways to apply it. I also bought some bondo (red) filler to do a little sculpting. I have the high density foam brushes (tons of em, and I picked ones with good edges.) I'm also grabbing a gravity feed spray gun that I'll be able to use with my compressor. Curious how I solved the paint problem from earlier? Heh.... Tractor Supply! I bought oil based heavy build primer, sandable light gray. I'm probably going to apply that with the brushes since I'm going to sand the **** out of it with boards from 320 through 1200, all wet. Yes, I have strong shoulders, free time, and a great deal of motivation.
The paint is International Harvester Red, it's Enamel and I'm going to thin it and shoot it with the grav feed gun. I can use the insulated garage for my Grandad's 42' Monaco camelot RV thats attached to the garage that houses Wilma 'N Friends. I can drive that thing like a champion (even in reverse.) I'll hang tarps so I don't get paint everywhere, and I'll be able to use it for a few days straight. I have some really good panels on the parts car ('69 220D) which I'll prepare in the same manner and practice painting on before I go after the W114. I'm not sure if Enamel is sandable or not. Either way I'll probably shoot on a few coats of clearcoat after I color sand the tractor paint. I know some of you will doubt the effectiveness of this method, but I'm confident in my abilities (and motivation / previous paint and body experiance) and I'll definately be posting pictures, so you can be the judge

I'll keep you guys posted.

alabbasi · #63 02-22-2010, 07:27 PM

Ahh the old rustoleum paint job. Love it.

JiveTurkey · #64 02-22-2010, 08:48 PM

I think the end result is directly proportionate to the ammount of work (sanding, prep, etc) put into the project. More often than not, those who opt to use a cheap method for paint application don't put forth the effort needed to make it look proper. But with the right ammount of sanding (hint: lots) and careful application in the right conditions there's no reason a home paint job can't still be done.

It won't have to win Pebble Beach, it just has to be shiny and pleasing to look at (in aggregate) while protecting the metal. Bonus, any future paint work or touch ups will be pain free since I won't have to go to a body shop.

thorsen · #65 02-22-2010, 09:58 PM

After you have gone this far, you don't want to paint the car with Rustoleum. You have spent a lot of time and effort on your car repairing the rust and knocking out the dents.

Rustoleum sounds like a good idea. It's cheap, it's easy to find, and there's the picture of the white Corvair that was painted for $50.

The picture below is my 1986 Audi Coupe GT I painted last summer. Rustoelum "Sunrise Red", 5 coats sprayed with my HVLP sprayer. It looked pretty damn good just after I painted it, didn't it?

It lasted about 3 weeks before it started to fade. Waxing didn't help, buffing only scratched it. I tried wet sanding but the Rustoleum clogs up the paper like you wouldn't believe. Over 2-3 months the paint faded and dulled out pretty quick.

Oh - you mentioned clear coat. Rustoleum clear coat turns yellow and urethane clear coat will only life the paint.

For the a little more than the cost of Rustoleum, you can buy a single-stage urethane paint that will last much longer.

Just my $.02

alabbasi · #66 02-22-2010, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiveTurkey

I think the end result is directly proportionate to the ammount of work (sanding, prep, etc) put into the project. .....

Spoken like a guy who truly doesn't know what he's talking about (sincerely no offense here as I had the same mindset until i went through the process).

Your time and labor is the most expensive part of the project and the amount of elbow grease that your going to go through to get a semi decent job in a non OE color is really not worth it. You need to apply a sealer over whatever repair / primer that you are using or there may well be a reaction to the paint. This type of enamel takes ages to dry and harden and in that time, all kinds of dust and bugs can get into it. Because you're not using a hardener, you'll need to wait a month or so before the paint hardens so that you can sand it and buff, or apply another coat.

I painted my 560SEL in Arctic white base coat, clear coat and bought the paint, reducer, clear and hardener for about $250 so the amount of money between the wrong paint and the right paint is not that much. Maaco will probably paint the car (parts and labor) for around that price and you'll get a much better job then what you're attempting.

Taking a rustoleum paint job back so that a real paint job can be applied is a real pain in the rear.

Sure, provided you put some elbow grease into it, you can get a great job with anything but seriously, you also need to put a price on the elbow grease and the risks of taking such approach. How about finding some old panels and shooting them.

Painting a car is enough of a challenge, by trying to cheap out on the paint and not using automotive paint, you are really stacking the odds up against yourself and there is no telling how long it will last.

TheDon · #67 02-22-2010, 11:53 PM

I would have went with some Evercoat primer.. awesome stuff

JiveTurkey · #68 02-23-2010, 08:31 AM

Guys, I love you, but THERE IS NO MAACO CLOSE ENOUGH to paint my car. The local bodyshops are mouth breathing yokel idiots.

Second, I'M NOT USING RUSTOLEUM

For those of you who don't know... The earliest cars were painted with oil based synthetic enamel using brushes. People have been spoiled by the expensive chemical reaction paint thats so prevelant now. Yes, it takes a long time to dry, because there are no hardeners in it. It also has a lot of solvent in it, and I know it takes a long time to dry. Time is NOT a problem, money is. There aren't any bugs out now, because it's still cold. The RV's garage has a concrete floor, and it's insulated with an electric heat system, I'll be painting at exactly 70 degrees. The electrical outlets are even "explosion proof" because my granddad is paranoid that the "sewer gas" from the bus might ignite with a spark. I'll even wet down the floor. Except for an outside air supply I have the perfect paint booth.

Did I mention that the paint I selected is an Acrylic Enamel? It's almost as toxic as the new stuff (still has isochynides in it) but has close durability, and 15-25% solids as sprayed, so it gives a pretty good build. It also has durability and good fade resistance due to the acrylics. It was very popular from the sixties to the eighties for automotive paint. It's also more durable and flexible than acrylic laquer. It's not quite as perfect as Urethane paint, but I'm not paying $200 to $400 per gallon for Acrylic Urethane.

Did we learn something today class? I wouldn't go half cocked after some random assed idea. (I'll say it again, I love you guys) But you needed a little common sense knocked into you.

Worst case scenario? It sucks and I have to strip it all off. No biggie, I'm in no rush to get this car done, and I'm never selling it. Lets look hard at the pro's and con's of the two painting strats we have.

What you guys reccomend (Correct me if I'm wrong)
Either take the car to Maaco and let them paint it, or buy "real" automotive paint and shoot it on with a High Velocity Low Pressure gun myself.

Pros-Acrylic Urethane is perfect car paint

Cons-I don't learn anything from letting Maaco paint the car, and any touchups will be a pain in the ass since someone else did the work.
-Cost (trailer to get to maaco, $120 worth of diesel to tow out to maaco and back, food expense since Maaco is distant, you get the picture.)
-Paying $200 per gallon for primer, and $300 or more for a good gallon of color, and the cost of clearcoat.
-Oh yeah, having to rig some kind of outside air supply so I can spray the Urethane.

My way
Heavy build oil based primer shot with an HVLP gun. After than I'll sand with boards through 1200 grit, wet the whole time. Then shoot a few coats of Acrylic Enamel paint. Depending on how it goes on, (I know enamels are already "glossy" and can't be buffed for about a year) I might try to put clear over it.

Pro's
-I'm learning another skill
-I can do it at my own pace, rather than book time in someone else's paint booth.
-I know the car will be perfectly clean and oil free before I shoot paint
-Any touchups will be pain free
-The paint is dirt cheap
-I'll build more shoulder muscle
-I'm not trying to sell this car, ever.
-I'm smart enough not to lay on paint 30 mils thick.

Cons
-it might not work and I'll have to find a new method.

Boy, that really makes a case doesn't it? It can be easy to forget how to live life on the cheap when you're middle aged with a 401k. Try to think back to when you used to put on a Steely Dan LP, burn a bowl, and enjoy life without getting so wrapped up in the details.

JiveTurkey · #69 02-23-2010, 08:43 AM

...And here I was expecting grief over the "spring helpers."

alabbasi · #70 02-23-2010, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiveTurkey

...And here I was expecting grief over the "spring helpers."

You can unf*** a spring helper quite easily. Your point about how cars were painted 80 years ago is pretty weak i'm affraid.

For a start, the main reason that people stopped using these old paint methods is simply because the chemicals that were put in them to make them durable have long been banned and the paint is no longer as durable as it was in the past,so no you won't get a good shine and if you do,it won't last.

Secondly, if the paint does not dry due quickly to no hardeners, how many coats do you think you can apply before there will be drips and runs all over the sides of the car? Do you expect a bug free day? Because if one decides to land and walk across your fresh paint job, it won't be as easy to sand off as you would think.

Then if you're not happy and decide to paint it again properly, it will probably have to be taken completely back to bare metal because you will be applying automotive paint over non automotive paint and thee will be a reaction.

This stuff is OK for a fence, but a fence isnt going to be hit by stones at 80 miles per hour.

You can call it a learning experience to take a car that might be one of a handful of examples that are in this county, spend a couple of hundred hours in labor and then chuck the cheapest possible paint on it, but it's your lesson to learn so I sincerely wish you the best of luck with it.

thorsen · #71 02-23-2010, 09:21 AM

You're absolutely right; glad to see you have it all figured it out. Please make sure you post pictures when you are done.

JiveTurkey · #72 02-23-2010, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alabbasi

For a start, the main reason that people stopped using these old paint methods is simply because the chemicals that were put in them to make them durable have long been banned and the paint is no longer as durable as it was in the past,so no you won't get a good shine and if you do,it won't last.
Secondly, if the paint does not dry due quickly to no hardeners, how many coats do you think you can apply before there will be drips and runs all over the sides of the car? Do you expect a bug free day? Because if one decides to land and walk across your fresh paint job, it won't be as easy to sand off as you would think.

You can call it a learning experience to take a car that might be one of a handful of examples that are in this county, spend a couple of hundred hours in labor and then chuck the cheapest possible paint on it, but it's your lesson to learn so I sincerely wish you the best of luck with it.

-I know they don't put lead in paint anymore
-I can mix in a hardener (I'll be sure to follow the proper mixing proportions
-Please don't try to guilt me over the fact that there aren't many 250CE's in the US. I've taken a car that was going to be used for "cash for clunkers" by the PO. Wilma was neglected in every possible way, the panels were ****ed, bondo was everywhere, and there were lots of half assed fixes in place when I got her.
The car is now more or less straight. Even if the paint I apply totally sucks immediately after I apply it, the WORST case scenario means I just have to strip everything down to bare metal and take it from there. Thats a cost free process (paint stripper isn't THAT expensive.) And I enjoy having a project.
I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest, I'm just looking for the best method to fit my needs. I've shot paint, I'm not ignorant of the fantastic chemical reactions that take place with the Urethanes from PPG or other "real" paint companies.

If you bothered to read closely, you'd notice that before going after the panels on my car, I'm going to expirament on the parts car. I should have pictures of that up within a couple weeks. Even if this paintjob only lasts two years it will be a hell of a lot better than the ****fest of 30 mil thick **** that was all over the car when I got her.

Most importantly, if you're working on a car and say to yourself "I'm not going to try something new because I might have to work hard to undo it." Then you're not doing work for the right reasons. Every time I've worked on a car I've come away feeling refreshed and happy. It's a labor of LOVE for me. If I have to spend three months taking the panels back to bare metal..... SO WHAT? It gives me something to do. I'll be able to spend some more days in the gargae listening to the Rolling Stones enjoying a few beers while bonding with my car.

Also, if this works out it will be a resource for other folks who desire a good finish without spending $2,000 for someone to spend a little while shooting on overpriced paint.