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  #61  
Old 06-27-2013, 12:44 PM
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Genoa, Nv
Posts: 882
The difference between the M116 and M117 is the block height-the M117 is a taller block to accommodate the longer stroke. The 5.6 engine is a bored and stroked 4.5 and the 4.5 is a stroked 3.5 but the M116’s/M117's have different rod lengths and piston compression heights.
I keep getting off track from my original plan-to build a duplicable package with stock parts that will provide a substantial increase in power in an iron block engine. My philosophy keeps changing as the project progresses but at this point it will be duplicating a stock 5.6 in a 4.5 block and keeping it as simple as possible. The same engine in its smogged, low compression state moves the heavier 560SEL pretty well so even a stock 560 engine with Megasquirt/EDIS and a better exhaust will be plenty powerful. There is a little cleanup in the intake ports that could be done and the factory intake manifold port matching is pretty sloppy so I will clean that up but that’s all I plan to do. The heads will get new guides/valves/springs. For now I want to get it running and then evaluate any changes I might make. I know it would be easier to have an adaptor plate made for the aluminum engine but it is very difficult to rebuild one properly due to the special cylinder honing process/stripped head bolts/etc. and there is an endless supply or iron block and 560 engines to make this combination. I know the 5.6 cams are a compromise(most stock cams are) but they are probably as good as any other stock cams and were intended for this engine. I can always change cams later. I found a source for adjustable timing gears if I want to play with the timing.
I thought about the clutch and found a company that produces a performance package but I read some posts by others that are using the stock clutch at 450HP so I will see how the stock clutch holds up. I am going to convert to a hydraulic throw-out bearing.
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Tony H
1971 280SE 3.5 Coupe(soon to be 5.6)
European Version
Manual transmission
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  #62  
Old 06-28-2013, 08:34 AM
Tomguy's Avatar
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The good thing about this is if you do this and you drill the block vs the heads, the cost now might be a little higher, but you could down the road swap heads much easier. That would leave you open should you be super lucky and find a set of Hammer heads or even "just" AMG heads. That'd be one hell of a deviation from your original 4.5 (as if what you're doing now isn't already).

Edit: Come to think of it... have you checked if M119 heads would work? I know the M119 is different BUT at the same time it's the "Natural evolution" of the 117 and the heads just might work... Imagine E500 heads and cams on the 5.6 you're doing.
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Previous: 1972 280SE 4.5 "Quicksilver", 1992 Jeep Cherokee Laredo "Jeepy", 2006 Charger R/T "Hemi"
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  #63  
Old 06-28-2013, 12:09 PM
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Genoa, Nv
Posts: 882
heads

I think I read somewhere the DOHC heads are too wide but an interesting idea. The 5.6 intake ports are actually pretty well designed. Modifying the block could be difficult since the new hole is only about 1/8 off from the existing hole and is in the space between cylinders-I think I am better off modifying the heads. The process would probably ruin the cylinder wall finish in that area.
I will need to use a 5.6 timing chain tensioner rail since the 5.6 uses a different tensioner and the 4.5 one does not match up. A 4.5 tensioner will not fit in the head.
2 holes of the power steering pump mount line up on the head and the other hole is in a location that it can be drilled(in the mount). I feel pretty solid with the heads at this point.
I will need to get the EGR ports plugged in the heads. They are in the exhaust ports in an area that can be welded. The manual says to use plugs that are driven in but I think welding is a better solution.
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1971 280SE 3.5 Coupe(soon to be 5.6)
European Version
Manual transmission
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  #64  
Old 06-28-2013, 03:32 PM
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: minneapolis
Posts: 110
I think that DOHC heads are a waste of time, it takes waay too much work to make em fit. plus it wont fit in the W111 chassis... granted the motor will probably be 30% more efficient.. but then you've got timing chain alignment issues and head/valve clearance problems. but you can do so much to the stock stuff to make it better. something interesting I discovered was that the drivers side M117 manifold has a longer collector then the M116. the cast iron pieces, longer collectors make more torque.

I would say and this what I'm doing to my engine,

Polishing the inside of the intake manifold (increased velocity) + ram air from Cowl to throttle body. if you read through this W116 autocar7202 : Mercedes-Benz S-Class - 280S, 280SE, 280SEL, 300SD, 350SE, 350SEL, 450SE, 450SEL & 450SEL 6.9 at the bottom " The size of the vestigial combustion chamber is virtually defined by the 44mm inlet valves which are inclined at 20 deg from the vertical and work on cast-iron inserts in the light alloy heads. Inlet throat diameter is 40mm with 38mm tracts. This diameter suggests a mean gas speed of 280 feet per second at full speed which is relatively slow and is the probable reason for the high speed, 4,000rpm, at which maximum torque is produced."

all SOHC v8 injected Mercedes engines benefit from increased port velocity, b/c the camshafts have so much overlap built in to them( the early ones at least, pre smog 52/53 46/47 etc). and the intake ports are too big. you need increased velocity to take advantage of the overlap and the exhaust scavenging that comes with it, to promote more torque and mid range. which is why in an earlier post about the ram air effect, when TOMGUY measured the water in little veils, and this post Modification for D-Jet M116 and M117 it made such a difference is b/c of the increased velocity going in to the motor. that coupled with head porting on the exhaust side, and then exhaust manifold/collector porting and the proper size tubes 2.25-2.5 all the way back after about 12in of stock size pipe to maintain velocity going out.

this work coupled with increased compression and megasquirt should be a Very healthy increase in power. and beyond that you could lighten components of the valve train (rocker arms) and such. and then even lighten the car it was going into. there are really only 2 ways to make more power in any given engine, compression(supercharger,turbo nitrous) and displacement, with displacement comes increased fuel consumption and compression just really makes it more efficient. I dunno, I'm sticking my 116 heads on my m117 block. your project is very interesting b/c its sort of internet myth that none of the alloy stuff interchanges. clearly you have proven the myth to not be true. I understand your quest to make a stockish 560 motor from an Iron block, I'm just saying there are other things to be done too. I'm not sure I believe that about the clutch, seems a little farfetched and clearly they never put a clutch behind the M117 which in stock form is 270 odd Ft/lbs. I dont think it can support the torque either not enough clamping load or the disc material isnt strong enough. I think the transmission itself is fine given GGR's experience with his 5.0 liter W111 but even the SLC's mercedes rallied were automatics. supposedly the 722.0 (3 speed) is the most robust transmission.. at least that's what I've read.
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R107.043 Euro 350SL (parts)(crushed)
W116.024 280se (crushed)
W114 280 (m110)
W108.067 280se 4.5
W108.068 280seL 4.5 (crushed)
W111 220SEB coupe
W110 200D went to the crusher
W110 190D sold sold sold

1970 Rover P6B

Used to own(1950 buick,1969 lincoln MK3,4G63t colt,87 300ZX, 79 F100, 92 XJ40)
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  #65  
Old 06-28-2013, 04:12 PM
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Genoa, Nv
Posts: 882
Concerning the heads-we will see but I cannot see any reason they won't work. Maybe no one ever tried. There would not be much point on putting 5.6 heads on a stock displacement 4.5-it would just drop the already low CR. This stuff is cheap enough at the Pick and Pulls it's no great loss if something dosen't fit-as long as I have not put money into machining, etc. I have thought alot about the clutch. It's one of those things I can deal with later if it does not work out. I don't want to change too many things at the same time-just get it driving and then see where I need to make changes.
Dirty-I agree with all you said regarding cams and port velocity-a very interesting discussion. I know the intake system is far from optimal but I want to change as little as possible for now. Something that's been nagging me through the entire process is I am still not sure how the 5.6 pistons are going to work in the iron block so I don't want to put a SL of money into it until I see if it lives. I figure worst case senario if the pistons don't work I can have some custom pistons made at a slight overbore.
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1971 280SE 3.5 Coupe(soon to be 5.6)
European Version
Manual transmission
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  #66  
Old 06-29-2013, 08:41 AM
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I am sure nobody's ever tried to the extent you will, I guarantee it. As for fitting in a 111, there was a 111 made with a 6.3 as a design experiment by an MB engineer, if a 6.3 can fit a 4.5 with m119 heads should be able to I don't see a huge issue there, but you probably will need the m119's intake and exhaust manifolds. Worst case scenario: You buy 119 heads and manifold, you try, there's no way at all, you toss them on eBay and maybe even make some $$.
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Current:
1999 Chrysler 300M (Click for pic) - 207,xxx - totalled by Nationwide for $1600 in damage. Being rebuilt better.
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited (Click for pic) - 32,xxx

My Mercedes Benz 108 109 resource site
August 2014 newsletter live.

Previous: 1972 280SE 4.5 "Quicksilver", 1992 Jeep Cherokee Laredo "Jeepy", 2006 Charger R/T "Hemi"
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  #67  
Old 07-01-2013, 12:44 AM
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Genoa, Nv
Posts: 882
I'm not thinking about the M119 heads-too many changes. I'm sticking with the stock 5.6 set up-I know it will drop in and all the accesories fit the engine. I think when I get the car back to driving condition I will install the original 3.5 so I have less unknowns. Once I get it sorted out I will install the 5.6.
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1971 280SE 3.5 Coupe(soon to be 5.6)
European Version
Manual transmission
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  #68  
Old 07-01-2013, 01:07 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
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Why not just use an M119 motor? 4.2's made 275hp and the 5.0's had 322hp. Early ones had CIS-E and distributors so there is not too much by way of computers. A couple of SEC guys have installed these in their cars and if they fit W126 engine bay, I expect that they'll fit a W111.
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  #69  
Old 07-01-2013, 02:36 PM
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Genoa, Nv
Posts: 882
Nice idea but I am pretty much at the point of no return on my present engine and I need the iron block. I'm already borderline Frankenbenz as it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alabbasi View Post
Why not just use an M119 motor? 4.2's made 275hp and the 5.0's had 322hp. Early ones had CIS-E and distributors so there is not too much by way of computers. A couple of SEC guys have installed these in their cars and if they fit W126 engine bay, I expect that they'll fit a W111.
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1971 280SE 3.5 Coupe(soon to be 5.6)
European Version
Manual transmission
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  #70  
Old 11-15-2013, 07:59 PM
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Genoa, Nv
Posts: 882
Still here. The one issue about this project that has concerned me from the beginning is the coating on the 560 pistons. After much research I have determined that not only is the coating compatible it is ideal for a iron block and behaves the same way as it does in an aluminum block by reducing scuffing. I was waiting to get the final honing done until I made this determination. the coating might be why the aluminum engines run such tight clearances compared to iron but I am going with the iron block clearance of .0008"-.0012"(.02-.03mm) When I got the block initially bored the machist bored it tight-only about .0005" clearance so I could get it finish honed after I determined the deck height and the final clearance needed. Even that tight the pistons moved easily in the cylinders.
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1971 280SE 3.5 Coupe(soon to be 5.6)
European Version
Manual transmission
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  #71  
Old 05-30-2014, 12:36 AM
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Genoa, Nv
Posts: 882
Well the block has been at the machine shop since early March. Stopped by to see if it was still there(ha ha) Said he should get to it in 2 weeks. There's no rush service with him. I was worried about the piston coating and even went on a search for custom pistons but I eventually found research confirming my belief the coating would work. The combination was actually patented by GM as a means of running tighter piston-cylinder clearance to reduce emmisions. I have changed the combination several times as the project has evolved but my final combination is 560 heads running Euro code 02/03 500SL cams and about 9.5:1 cr. Pics when I get it back.
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Tony H
1971 280SE 3.5 Coupe(soon to be 5.6)
European Version
Manual transmission
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  #72  
Old 05-30-2014, 03:07 AM
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Location: brisbane,Qld.Australia
Posts: 2,042
I was working on a Chrysler 413 last year which had been rebored incorrectly (.009 clearance!!) so itran with massive piston slap . The engine rebuilder rectified his cockup by coating the pistons. it almost worked ,the coating works well but the clearance was still too great so there is a knock. The owner had already spent $250,000 on a car which he had bought as an unfinished resto project . A project which had already sucked up $250,000 . Amazing but true!!.
If it were mine I would have dumped the short block and started again.
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  #73  
Old 10-26-2014, 09:58 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6
Interesting project, progress?

Hi Tony, are there some news on your 5.6 project? After the Panamericana W108 projsct car I hadn't much time to go on with my coupe but now it is time to finish it.

So for your conversion I could tell you something about the the correct clutch to fit on your conversion. I tried several clutches on my 500 E W124 manual conversion. First at all the 3.5 clutch 240 mm is after the 280mm BMW CSi clutch one of the best single clutches you can use. The Alpina B7 turbo Coupe has a modified 240 mm Sachs clutch and had 560 nm with 330 HP. First I tried a combination of BMW E36 M3 clutch with sinter elements, worked great but not in everyday traffic. Than I tried the ALPINA TYPE (modified orginial 240 MB Sachs-clutch to Alpina standart) and it works well in a 560SEC-manual conversion. In my W124036 I use a modified 240 clutch used in tuned Turbodiesel Engines, good for more than 600nM and this goes very well.

The large V4 heads don't function in W111/108, they are 4 cm to large (this is why the M119 was never in the G).

Withe the heads down you have to work on your air conducts and behind the valve seats. Conducts have to be larged and litered (I use a metal ball for mesurment). The first 5.0 (like GGR) had 450 like heads and airintake and are a little "closed". So you can work on that. Behind the valveseat and guides is much material to make the mixture flow better.


Best PAgodino
Attached Thumbnails
Project: Iron block 5.6-a1.jpg   Project: Iron block 5.6-dscf8673.jpg   Project: Iron block 5.6-einlass2.jpg   Project: Iron block 5.6-kopfbearbeitung2.jpg  
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  #74  
Old 10-26-2014, 07:41 PM
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Genoa, Nv
Posts: 882
Yea I finally got the block back from the machine shop a few weeks ago-he had it 6 months. Final honing and parallel decked. I set the piston clearance at .0015"-should work out well. I have not had any time to put into it yet-too busy at work. As far as the heads are concerned I am going to clean up the ports and port match the manifolds but no major work or reshaping-the 5.6 ports are pretty good but the but the factory port matching is sloppy. I will keep your notes about the clutch-I will be there eventually. This is going to be a normally driven street car so I don't need anything exotic. More to come soon.
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Tony H
1971 280SE 3.5 Coupe(soon to be 5.6)
European Version
Manual transmission
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  #75  
Old 01-02-2015, 11:18 PM
Tony
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Genoa, Nv
Posts: 882
Pics of block

Here's a few Pics of the block. Front cover was decked with the block. Been too busy with work and the Holidays to do anything with it yet.
Attached Thumbnails
Project: Iron block 5.6-img_1875s.jpg   Project: Iron block 5.6-img_1876s.jpg  
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1971 280SE 3.5 Coupe(soon to be 5.6)
European Version
Manual transmission
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