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  #1  
Old 04-26-2003, 08:22 PM
justinbowser
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The long sleeping, now barely running, 450SE saga - Chap 2 - Running better, sorta!

Well, brother-in-law delivered the monster today (guess he figured he'd better get it into MY back yard before I changed my mind!) so now I don't have to make a 300 mile round trip to work on it. We dropped it off the trailer, started it, and after warming up it was able to make it up a 10 degree incline with only a little help!

First order of business, I suppose, will be new injector seals. The "mechanic" that had worked on it last used a handful of O-rings on each one in lieu of the proper seals so I have no doubt each one is sucking air.

Where is the best place (price/service wise) to order injector seals from? I have checked several on-line outlets and see them only listed as individual pieces-parts. Surely somebody has a "kit" out there for a good price.

This car appears to have "California" emissions controls (three million vacuum lines, EGR valve, smog pump, etc.) Is there anybody that could send me some good hi-res pics of this bed of snakes so that I might verify/route all of this plumbing correctly?

Once I get it running halfway decent I will probably downgrade the car to "Federal" emissions equipment as I have a computer from a different 74 that doesn't have all this crap on it. Y'all will porobably be hearing from me a lot... :-)

Thanks in advance,


Justin B.


Last edited by justinbowser; 04-27-2003 at 02:48 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-26-2003, 11:14 PM
wbain5280's Avatar
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Get them through this sites parts section. Good luck with it.
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Warren

Currently 1965 220Sb, 2002 FORD Crown Vic Police Interceptor

Had 1965 220SEb, 1967 230S, 280SE 4.5, 300SE (W126), 420SEL

ENTER > = (HP RPN)

Not part of the in-crowd since 1952.
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  #3  
Old 04-27-2003, 12:22 AM
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You will enjoy reading this thread on the W116 chassis 450 SE(L)'s:

What happened to all the W116 - '73-'80 450 SEL's?
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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".
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  #4  
Old 04-27-2003, 11:19 AM
justinbowser
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New wrinkle...

Now that the car is withing convenient reach I started going over the vacuum diagram in the Mercedes manual and found that NOTHING matched up. I was confused and a bit pissed...

I finally read the ENTIRE emissions tag and it mentioned in there somewhere that it met all emissions standards for 1975! The plate on the door jamb indicates it was manufactured in July, 1974.

Sooo, I clicked on '75 in the electronic manual and lo and behold the widgets and such on the firewall now appear to match up. I guess this means the car must be a 1975 and it also means I bought the wrong computer!!! Will make a note to injure brother-in-law next time I see him...

Back to the drawing board.


Justin B.
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  #5  
Old 04-27-2003, 03:00 PM
justinbowser
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Update...

Was able to find some vague vacuum diagrams in the shop manual, printed them out, and crawled under the hood to scratch my head (bet y'all thought I was going to say something else, didn't ya?) for a while. What I saw didn't make any sense!

It seems the putge valve is missing and the vacuum connection onto the back of the lower(?) intake manifold was open so I plugged it for now. That made the throttle a bit more responsive. On to next item...

The diverter valve had no vacuum line on it. The nipple on the vacuum switch where it was suppose to be connected to had a hose, check valve, and a hose ran over to a T that looks like was in a spot where the purge valve might should have been connected! Gonna have to go to junk yard tomorrow and see if I can scare up thie purge valve...

Although it is running a bit better throttle response is sluggish and it sounds like it is missing on a couple of cylinders. Will look at plugs tomorrow as well to see if they might tell me something. Plugs and wires (Accell 8mm header wires) are new. There is a quite noticeable "clack" coming from the right bank that sounds pretty much like a bad lifter in a "normal" V8. Do these have hydraulic lifters/followers?

My request for a couple good close-ups of the engine compartment so I can properly route all these hoses, etc., would still be appreciated.

That's all for now...


Justin
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  #6  
Old 04-28-2003, 08:08 PM
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Justin:

Mechanical lifters up to 76, I think. Will check.

Emissions regulation changeover date will be September, 1974, so if delivered after that will meet the 1975 CA requirements. At least it doesn't have catalytic converters!

I'd not get too excited about mixture control until you get the injector seals in -- get both, there is a large one on the injector, retained with a snap ring, and a small one that fits in the hole in the head. Make sure you fish out the remnants of the old ones!

If you ran it any time with the ignition in poor shape, the plugs will be black. If they are Bosch, put new one in, they take forever to clear on their own, even when you get the mixture right.

It's almost certain that there was enough gunk in the fuel system to foul the plugs and injectors, too -- run some RedLine or Techron through as soon as possible, then fill with nice clean premium.

Peter
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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #7  
Old 04-28-2003, 10:01 PM
justinbowser
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Went to the "yard" today and found the purge valve that was missing and plumbed it in. I am pretty sure I have all the vacuum lines and other junk hooked up properly now. :-)

I also snagged a new cold start injector (looked brand new) and 8 more injectors. Brother-in-law and "mechanic" sort of mixed and matched injectors so that might be some more of my problems. Cold start injector not squirting, hit it with 12v and it squirts, so I guess this is probably some more of the "mechanic's" wiring that is incorrect. :-(

Car had a mix of blue and green injectors so I snagged 8 blue ones off a '75 I found today. Got them soaking in Berryman's B-12 at the moment and have been hitting them with 12v from time-to-time. Got all of them so they will now click, 4 have very good patterns (filling them full of B-12 and putting air pressure to 'em), 3 with ununiform patterns, and one more that is still clogged. They continue to soak...

I need some clarification on the injector seals. I've pretty much figured out what the "top" seal is but what I have seen today on two different 1975 models is vastly different bottem seals. One engine had kind of "T" shaped rubber seals in the head with the injector poking through them. The other had a plastic type "cup" down in the hole in the head and an O-ring where the injector body steps down to the nozzle. Also, the engine with the T shaped rubber seals seemed to have slightly smaller injector holes in the head. Couldn't really compare as they were a half a yard away! Mine currently has nylon "cups" down in the hole in the head (bro-in-law and "mechanic" put them in new) but they don't look to me like they fit good and they are much different than the ones I saw today. Is this plastic/nylon cup considered the lower seal on some?

I am starting to look at completely re-doing everything that has been done before I acquired the car as it is all suspect at this point.

I was listening a little closer to my "clack" today and I am now of the opinion that it's an exhaust leak at the head. I think I have two exhaust ports leaking so will need to order some gaskets.

Oh, unfortunately this has cats, ugly damn things! Would I be wise to snag the exhaust manifolds off the 74 I found at a different yard?

Regards,

Justin B.

Last edited by justinbowser; 04-28-2003 at 11:19 PM.
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  #8  
Old 04-29-2003, 10:30 AM
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injector seals

Justin:


The cup seal you mention is a 116-078-00-83.

The other seal is a 116-078-070-73.

I purchases these from Phil for my 75 450 sl.These are for the blue injectors

Gunny
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  #9  
Old 04-29-2003, 11:04 AM
justinbowser
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Thanks, Sarge! Is the cup, then, considered the lower seal?

Thanks,

Justin
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  #10  
Old 04-29-2003, 04:56 PM
justinbowser
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Update

I pulled all of the injectors and fuel ring today and looked at the new nylon cups (lower seals?) that bro-in-law and "mechanic" had put in and found that most of them were just sitting there. I had originally thought these might be the wrong ones but I managed to pull some old ones on my junkyard haunt yesterday for comparison. I measured the narrowest part and only found .003 difference so I concluded I had the correct pieces.

I decided these items needed to be pressed down into their holes thereby forming a good tight fit/seal with the head. I found a socket that fit perfectly in the cup (where the green O-ring fits) and used it as a mandrel and seated the "cups" into the head with a small hammer. Things looked a lot better now, more like the ones I saw on junkyard motors...

After getting the bottom seals squared away I attached the injectors I soaked and cleaned last night to two different fuel rings/rails (originals were kinda bent so I picked up some straight ones) and installed them into the engine. I used the junkyard green O-rings as they cleaned up nicely and were still very soft and pliable. I will order some new ones and new upper seals as well but this is just a test.

Now that I have all "blue" injectors I crossed my fingers and hit the key. It started real easy once the air got purged out of the system and it now idles and runs much better than it did before although it still has a pretty bad miss and the throttle response is not what I think it should be.

I thought I'd try adjusting the mixture pot on the ECU and found that the pot's froze up! Fixin' to take some WD-40 to it to see if I can get it to turn...

Justin B.
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  #11  
Old 05-01-2003, 06:35 PM
justinbowser
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More progress, but a glitch...

Over the past two days I have this monster so it is starting to run half-way decent! Today, after Peter's mentioning of the points, I hooked up my dwell meter (I haven't had an excuse to use this for years) and found dwell to be about 28 degrees. Again, another assumption that the "mechanic" that had put the points in for bro-in-law knew how to set them! The scary thing is that this guy was supposed to be a mechanic at a Mercedes dealership in Temple, TX!!!

I readjusted the dwell to 34 degrees, re-set the timing to TDC (with vacuum lines attached), and finally got all of the exhaust manifold bolts/nuts tight. Of course the one hardest to get at wasn't even finger tight! Had to pull battery box and smog line to get on it but finally tightened it up. I started it up, re-set idle speed when warmed up, and it ran 100% better with only a slight miss at idle and half way decent throttle response.

I squirted a bunch of Marvel's penetrating oil in the aux air valve, let things get up to operating temp for 10 minutes or so and then performed the psfred "procedure" on the aux air valve. I then hooked the aux air valve back up and idle speed only incresed about 100 RPM and I was able to turn it back down to 900 with the idle air bleed screw.

At this point I was extremely happy, until I put it in gear and moved it about 6 feet backward and forward. It then started running like crap, trying to stall, and backfiring through TB when I gave it the gas - CRAP!!! A storm was brewing so I called it quits.

I ordered a bunch of new fuel injector electrical connectors and next week will probably start fabricating a new engine portion of the wiring harness. When it started running like crap it was almost like throwing a switch, the change from good to bad was that abrupt. I imagine I maybe/likely still have wiring issues to deal with so I'm going to completely rewire the top of the engine just to be sure.

I maybe see a faint light at the end of the tunnel, hope it's not a freakin' train!!!

Justin

Last edited by justinbowser; 05-03-2003 at 05:45 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-04-2003, 03:05 PM
justinbowser
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Gunny,

I'll try setting the timing ahead and see what happens, this is the first engine I've messed with that has TDC specified for initial timing!

I know where a 74 is that still has exhaust manifolds so I may try to snag them if the yard doesn't want too much for them. I also have the ECU from a 74 450SE that I might put in as well, looking at the wiring diagram it appears all of the ECU related wiring was the same from 74 to 75, unless I'm missing something... In TX, once the car reaches 25 years old the emissions testing is no longer required, and even if there is a visual they should look like they belong there! Also can get "antique" plates, although there are supposed to be some driving/use restrictions I never got hasseled on the 65 Impala SS I used to have antique tags on...

I still haven't decided whether or not this is a "Federal" or "California" emissions car. It says in the book that California emissions models have a placque on the radiator support with a vacuum diagram, I don't have this tag. The emissions tag says it meets Federal EPA, California, and Canadian emissions requirements so maybe the vacuum diagram is missing.

I have the Haynes and a bootleg Mercedes 116 CD so between the two I think I now have all of the vacuum lines ran correctly and wiring mostly straightened out. I ordered some Bosch injector connectors and 13 different colors of 18 ga automotive wire last Friday so when it get's in I'm going to fab up a replacement engine wiring harness and solder it to the "stub" sticking out of the firewall.

Here's my game plan for this week!

1. My injector seals should be here tomorrow so will put in the new injector seals tomorrow.

2. I think I'm going to order a set of Taylor SpiroPro wires which are about 100 ohms per foot and replace the Accel supression core wires. This will give 200-300 ohms per spark plug wire. I just measured the Accel wires and they look to be about 3500 ohms/foot, longest wire (#4) has about 11.5 K ohm resistence. Summit also has some hi performance wire that is about 400 ohms per foot which would give a little closer to the solid wire/1000 ohm spark plug cap combination if this will make the ignition amplifire happier - I invite discussion on this.

3. Make new engine wiring harness.

4. After all the above, take out the carboned up AC plugs and install a fresh set of NGK plugs.

Hopefully after the above has been done it will run like a watch! I have put in a bid on e-Bay on a pair of valve cover gaskets and will adjust the valves when I get them as it sounds like a couple are a tad loose. The manual calls out a special tool/wrench for valve adjustment, is this absolutely required?

Thanks to all for their help and patience, although I've been wrenching my own stuff for years this 450 makes me feel like a total newb!!

Later...

Justin
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  #13  
Old 05-04-2003, 03:06 PM
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Timing

Justin :

Try advancing the timing 5 to 10 degrees.
I had to do this to my 75 sl. It ran much better.

Also i believe the haynes manual has the california vacuum schematic.The manual is about 20 odd dollars or so.

My 107 cd has a trouble shooting section for checking the continuity and ohms values from the ecu connector to the various temp sensors etc.This should be the same on your car.If you want i can xerox them and snail mail them to you or burn a copy of the 107 cd.

Also the cats on my car are going i got a set of 1974s, mine are cracked and leaking,i dont have to go thru emissions due to the age of the car i believe dumping the cats will help greatly.
Best of luck Keep us posted

Gunny
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  #14  
Old 05-05-2003, 07:33 PM
justinbowser
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Gunny,

I set my ignition advance to 10 BTDC and it does idle smoother but I am now unable to get idle speed under about 1100. Disconnected and pluged hose to Aux Air Valve and still have a fast idle so at least that thing hasn't stuck open again. I guess it's afraid I'll get the BFH back out!

I'm a bit confused by the hight idle. I have replaced every vacuum line I could find and put in the new injector seals today. At least at TDC timing it idled at about 900 RPM! I'm afraid that once I get some lower resistance plug wires and new NGK plugs in it it'll idle even higher!

On a brighter note it DOES run about 100% better than it did a week ago so I must be making some sort of progress!

Regards,

Justin B.
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  #15  
Old 05-05-2003, 11:07 PM
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Location: Evansville, Indiana
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Justin:

Check for vac leaks in the climate control and door locks, too -- yellow and green hard plastic lines at the firewall. A busted diaphram in the door locks can give you quite a leak.

Also check the condition of the hose to the MAP-- I had to replace mine, it was rock hard and loose on the manifold nipple.

If the injectors aren't seated correctly, they will also leak, but you should have this taken care of. However, the seals between the manifold halves will also get hard a leak -- you can check with an unlit propane torch -- blow propane down there and if the idle changes, you have a leak. I'm going to replace mine when I re-seal the block this summer.

10 BTDC is going to be too much, try 5.

Peter

__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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