Is the W123 overated? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

lietuviai · #1 10-26-2003, 06:07 PM

I'm probably going to get many angry responses to this thread but I'm going to risk it anyway. I went through the entire service history of my '85 300D turbo and I have found that this car , IMHO, is no more reliable than a US made car of that period. It currently has 219K miles. In some ways it has not held up as well at all. Most every switch and relay has been replaced. A lot of the trim has fallen off and has been either replaced or was reattached using some other means. Most every suspension part has been rebuilt. The transmission had been rebuilt. The climate control has been replaced twice. The exhaust system was replaced. The turbo had been replaced. All the engine run accessories have replaced. I guess when you spend about $32K for a new car, you're going to have an additional incentive to spend more money on it to keep it running. Most cars in 1985 didn't even cost $10K so I guess there wasn't such an incentive to dump too much money into them. I think the only supposed good thing about the car is that the engine is supposed to last a real long time, but I have read instances in this forum and in others where there were some premature expensive failures.
Maybe my car is an exception but how many out of you out there has all the service records from new on your cars and know the whole picture?
So my question is, what makes (other than the engine) the W123 such a good car?

Ken300D · #2 10-26-2003, 06:19 PM

They are certainly grossly over rated - particularly as the year 2003 finds them as 1980s cars.

In particular, the diesel versions are noisey, smelly, rusty and not easy to start in winter.

The best you can do if you own one is put it up for sale (EBay is a good venue) and be prepared to accept $500 to $1000 for one in good condition.

Ken300D

TxDave · #3 10-26-2003, 07:30 PM

Yes the switches tend to get gunked up. You can usually clean them, but it takes nimble fingers. The trim glue could've been better but what does it cost to fix that?

I don't know about all the other problems. My 85 300D Turbo was great. The suspension rocked, it had decent get up and go. It was a tank.

You may have a point regarding new prices. But you can get into them cheap now. So if there was ever a time that it was overated, it is not now.

I found it to be a very easy car to keep on the road. The 123 model must have gone on for ten years or so. That means there are tons of cars in salvage yards that you can pick stuff off of since you have a whole decade's run to chose from. Now if you have to go to the dealer everytime it is rough on the wallet.

When I sold mine I did have one problem of it not wanting to start when it was hot (after summer highway driving). That was annoying.

I think these days they could be considered the best bang for the buck.

By the way, I wonder if the owner was getting suckered here and there. If all that stuff in the maintennance history had to be done by a mechanic go ahead and assume at least a couple of those jobs were not necessary. Good thing is, your car must be in pretty good condition!!

rickjordan · #4 10-26-2003, 07:33 PM

Your car would not be the norm. When it comes to the discussion of reliability, there will always be an acception, even when talking about Hondas. My father owns both an '84 Buick Regal and an '85 300D. The Buick is on it's second engine and transmission, and it still doesn't run right, the interior is completely shot. His Benz, is still on it's original drive train, never had it opened. He currently has 320,000 miles on it. Granted he has had some A/C work, but the car is after all 18 years old. He still perfers driving the Benz. The Buick feels as if it would completely collapse if it hit a poodle. How many domestic cars do you see that are still running on their original non-rebuilt drive train after that many years and miles?. My '83 TD is 20 years old and believe it or not still has it's original exhaust system. Now in all fairness I have an Uncle that put 250,000 miles on a 1979 Corvette and only replaced the usual wear and tear items. Those were primarilly highway miles. When people "rate" the W123 series, they talking in general terms.

Mark DiSilvestro · #5 10-27-2003, 09:58 AM

lietuvial,
You didn't say if your problems began when your 123 was new or mainly occured after it was several years old. As someone who has owned several well-used older Mercedes, I would expect after 10 - 15 years to have to repair/replace various items like waterpump, AC, PS, hoses, switches etc...

In my opinion, the W123 series is one of the last of the 'over-built' Mercedes, but with certain reservations. As Mercedes US marketing in the '60s and '70s went from selling quality cars to selling luxury cars, reliabilty suffered as gadgets and options were added. After the dollar devaluations in the '70s caused skyrocketing German car prices in the US, many options became standard equipment here. Except on the cheapest diesel models, Automatic trans, cruise control, power windows, power seats, power sunroofs and automatic climate controls became mandatory options for the US market. Many of these items, appealed to luxury car buyers but proved trouble prone.
If I were looking for a W123 today, my preference would be a gas 4 or 6 cyl or 5 cyl, non-turbo diesel with a 5 speed, manual windows and manual AC, but try to find one!

The situation continues today as most of the gadgets, and more, can now be had, even on the cheapest Chevy or Toyota. Here, most new car buyers get rid of their cars after a few years, before these gadgets start to give trouble, so there's little incentive to sell more simple, reliable cars. as are availible in other countries.

Would most new car buyers today be willing to give up most of the car gadgets or options we now take for granted. in exchange for long term reliability?

To all on this Forum - What common gadget(s) or options(s) could you do without on your new car?

Happy Motoring, Mark

#6 10-27-2003, 11:05 AM

They represent a sadly bygone philosophy of buying quality stuff and then taking care of it...with the result being what in the classic era was considered a potentially "permanant car."

The W123 diesels represented "mature" technology, simply built of the best materials, and appearance less dated than much that followed them in the MB product pipeline.

There are very few electronics to go bad in these models...and a lot of the items you mentioned might be expected to receive attention over a 20 year service life...something no one can expect from ANY contemporary vehicle.

I have two 240Ds and one 300CD. The 300 has the most maintenance and repair issues...but is still preferable to any luxury vehicle built at that time or since (IMHO) since it generally CAN be fixed for reasonable costs, whatever the complaint.

I don't think stuff like AC was important to the Germans, but what they installed is certainly the equal of anything on a US car of that era...and one feature that shows age. The fact that so many of these jaspers soldier on two decades hence, and that a considerable body of knowledge on "fixes" has accumulated over the 20 years since (vz this forum) attest to the quality of these vehicles. IMHO (again) these were the last real cars to be built by anybody...their quality reminds me of the pleasant discovery made in the '50s and '60s by those who bought straight-8 Packards as disposable daily drivers, and fell in love with their quality and dependability...and still have them.

300SDog · #7 10-27-2003, 12:45 PM

A question of target marketing..... what do people want???

MB 110, 111, 108, 114, 115, 116 are probably the most under-rated cars ever built. Modern car buyers dont like 'em because they dont have all the sucker features of newer cars....... bells and whistles, trick features and fancy gadgets. The 116 has been widely criticized on the American market for not having enough switches on the dashboard, imagine that.

Then take a look at the 190Dc 4-spd. 110...... it's the best of its kind - a true hand assembled 'workingman's Benz' and 3rd world taxi cab that can be torn apart, field stripped and reassembled by anybody in their own driveway. What could be simpler??

Regarding the 123 - big ticket item right now is the 240D with standard shift. No other car more closely accomodates typical driving conditions, bonding its driver with engine performance at every speed. Its a true hammer-down diesel........ arguably the 240D is the most soulful Benz that has ever been built with clackety-clack idling engine, almost human cold start wakeup characteristics and zero mechanical mysteries.

Yet the sucker market wont tolerate simplicity and most drivers insist that travelling 80mph in turbo-charged tricked out machine with millions of complicated gadgets means they are going faster than somebody travelling 80mph in the humble 240D.

Handling, Coachwork and Reliability are what draw most people to owning vintage MBs....... unfortunately, many of the later and more fashionable "designer" cars bury these simple virtues behind a minefield of wacky electronics, millions of vacuum lines and silly gadgets that the sucker market demands.

As I've said, its a question of target marketing...... if you dont like the fiddly bits of newer cars, or hate diesels for their characteristics - get yourself a 108 / 280SE or a 111 / 220Sb.... If you've gotta go 100+mph - get yourself a 4.5 or the absolute animal 6.3 or 6.9.

ctaylor738 · #8 10-27-2003, 01:03 PM

The trouble with these threads is that they usually recall individual experiences like my 300D and somebody's brother's Chevelle. So here is my story.

We have had 114's, 123's, a 124, and a 202. The 123's were a 1978 240D, a 1982 300D (Turbo), and a 1979 280E. We had the 300D from 1983 until 1999. I enjoyed all of these cars. The 300D was our daily driver for a long time. It always looked good and was enjoyable to drive. It never looked old. I always looked back at it after I had parked it. It had its share of troubles - monovalves and climate contol, and alignment but no more so than the Dodge Durango and minivan that bracketed this car.

I travel a lot and rent cars frequently. During the '80's especially, I remember how tacky the US-made cars seemed, and their soft and mushy handling compared to the 300D.

The 240D gave us 50K miles with no trouble, only routine maintenance and a set of tires. The 280E was an absolute blast to drive and was sold only because an incredibly bad body repair caused terminal rust.

Maybe the answer is in the number of these cars still on the road. FE, there were four for sale in The Post this weekend, compared to one Chevy - a Caprice.

#9 10-27-2003, 01:20 PM

...are, to me, the two categories Mercedes-Benz fall into. The W123 diesels and many other of the simpler models from the '50s thru mid-'80s are smart people's Benzes. Almost everything built since the mid-'80s would qualify as rich people's Benzes, even the low end stuff. This is because IMHO all "modern" Benzes are little better than Camrys and Accords, only at considerably bigger prices. The 123s were cars that sold for good money because they had terrific "value added"...newer Benzes seem to start with the window sticker and work backward to what's a very mediocre product.

Tomguy · #10 10-27-2003, 01:24 PM

I only know of one person who had a 123...
One of my firends recently sold his 300D with over 300K miles on it. He got rid of it because he got fed up with the cold start problems and the fact that diesel is expensive and not too easy to find in this area. Other than that, he absolutely loved it and said he could not imagine a more reliable vehicle.
As for my 108, I LOVE its handling. At 80MPH the handling surpasses any vehicle I've ridden in or driven at 60MPH. At 120MPH its cornering ability is still unbelievable, especially considering its weight. The way it floats over bumps at 135+ and provides the smoothest ride of any vehicle I've ever driven past 110MPH. I cannot imagine a car that handles this well, be it at 5MPH or at 140MPH. The lack of roll in corners, the way it sticks to the road like its flypaper, and the way it glides over tough Scranton potholes makes me even more proud of the fact that I own and drive this vehicle. I do not care that it needs a paint job. I do not care that I get ~14MPG. I like knowing that some 16 year old riceboy in his lowered Honda stands no chance, especially once I pass 70MPH. Acceleration from 70 on up is faster than any car I've ever been in before, and 0-60 is no slouch either - I am sure it's around 6 seconds, definetly under 7!

#11 10-27-2003, 02:56 PM

Somebody alluded to it, but I'll just say it. Are W123's overrated? Just look at the number of them still on the road vs. anything of similar age.

As with anything mechanical, they will require upkeep to keep them running. The absolute newest possible W123 is now officially 19 years old. The fact that there are the numbers still plying the roadways is a testament in itself. I know for a fact that I'll never get that level of service from anything else in my "fleet" except my Dodge truck. They simply aren't built to the same standard.

psfred · #12 10-27-2003, 07:31 PM

No, they are not overrated. They are, however, cars designed in the 1970s, and are begining to show it.

They do not handle like a new MB, they don't, expecially the diesels, accelerate like a new car, they have harder seats than newer cars that are less comfortable to some people, but show ANYTHING produced in Japan or Detroit that can be restored to factory new condition for less than $6000 if the body isn't rusted!

If the interior is decent and there isn't anything major wrong with the drive train, you can return a W123 to new condition fairly easily. Interior restoration will be a bit expensive, but not all that much of a stretch considering a Neon costs $!0,000 and most of then have bad PS pumps from the factory.....

Suspension components replaced twice in 219,000 miles is abusive driving or cheap parts, I've got 186,000 on the 300D and the shocks are all still good.

Peter

#13 10-27-2003, 08:01 PM

Well, I don't think they are over rated. but I think the design isn't that good. I don't like the plasticy feel of the fake wood grain dashboard, or the fact that they rust even more than a W108.

psfred · #14 10-27-2003, 08:39 PM

The wood on the dash is just as real as the wood in the W108 except for some "stickon" bits. It just has a mile of polyurethane finish on it so it LOOKS like plastic. True of all the later cars as well.

Better than the nicer original finish of the W108s that melts and crackes with age? well, you decide!

Peter

autozen · #15 10-27-2003, 09:50 PM

In my opinion, you supporters of the 123 are fabulous. Although the 123 was never a great car, it was one of the best produced by MB. Years ago I had a customer who bought a new 300DT and a new LIncoln at the same time. He kept careful records on costs including DEPRECIATION, and the MB kicked ass on the LIncoln. You can check this out, but if you buy a new Neon today, you will have spent $30,000 over the next 5 years . Another question would be. Where can you buy a new door latch for a 20 year old AMERICAN built car? Answer would be wrecking yard if they aren't all gone or broken. My wife works in the Napa Valley that produces world class wines. In fact the company she works for buys and develops wineries. She has the oldest car in the parking lot. She drives an 83 300TDT with 330,000 miles, and they are still impressed. Imagine if she drove up in a new Dodge Neon. WOW would they be impressed? I'm not trying to impress anyone here. I'm just trying to say that Mercedes has been the mark of value over the years, but I'm not sure of the future with the the crap that has been spewed out lately. I've been a factory trained MB mechanic for 30 years, and I have my personal thoughts on the best models after having dealt with them over the years. Below is my list of the best post war models.

220S (incredible craftmanship)
220Sb (like a swiss watch)
W108 (simply elegant)
W123 (the workhorse with refinements and safety)
W124
W126 (the benchmark) (nothing else needed except self closing features from the 124)

Peter
w110