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  #1  
Old 01-07-2004, 11:16 PM
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Angry my 250 won't turn over all of a sudden

Folks,

My w114 m130 has been running great and my most reliable car recently but today I tried to start it and it turned over and fired, run for a second and died. That's been normal in cold weather. Then, I tried to cranck it again and dead silence. The started did not turn over. I can hear relays coming on in position 1 and in position 2 (in the ignition switch) I can hear someting else get power in the area of the starter (passenger leg area) and the park/neutral switch seems to click too. The battery is just fine; very strong head lights etc...The car ran yesterday just fine. I will have a helper tomorrow so I'll try to test for power at the selenoid and starter (as per other posts here.)

If you guys have any ideas of what I could try, while my helper is here, to resolve this issue, I would really appreciate. This is super bumming me out and of course I want to drive the Benz soon again.
Thanks in advance...

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Old 01-07-2004, 11:47 PM
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Here's the usual remedy....... rubber hammer the solenoid to free it from sticking especially in cold weather. If you want to prove this is source of problem ask your assistant to turn the key while you hammer away at the solenoid..... otherwise you can rap the solenoid yourself and then should be able to start the car as one man operation..... a cheap skate friend of mine with really old BMW suffered sticky solenoid problem and carried rubber hammer in his car 2 yrs before actually replacing the starter/solenoid unit - Itsa common problem.

If the solenoid is inaccesible with rubber hammer, get a baseball bat or 2x4 and use it like a two fisted pool cue or act like Capt. Arab harpooning the whale as you smack the solenoid in just the right place, dont worry about hitting it too hard..... with time you can perfect the technique to make it through the Winter - and then maybe the problem will go away in warmer weather.

Last edited by 300SDog; 01-07-2004 at 11:54 PM.
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  #3  
Old 01-07-2004, 11:55 PM
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Thanks DieselDog.

I'll have to try that. That is the ol' mechanic's trick isn't it?

It's pretty tight there but your idea of a 2x4 might just work. I just hit the selenoid anywhere?

Capt. Arab Harpooning ha? lol

I've never had a problem with that before but it has been very cold here and very wet right before that. So hopefully that's it.
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Old 01-08-2004, 06:27 AM
Winterfjord
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Seriously, this technique should be expained on milk cartons or something. It's one of those essential things that every car owner should know, right up there with steering and braking. I first learned this on my '62 Saab two-stroke. On an old car like that, kicking and punching is part of the drill, so it came pretty naturally.

I really have to share this with you: I went on a skiing trip with a bunch of my friends, and we stayed in a house in the middle of the woods in Sweden. To avoid car trouble, I had borrowed my father's '97 Volvo V70 (comfy and reliable). One morning, the car just wouldn't start. Just the "click" mentioned above. We had to tow the car on icy roads to the nearest city to find a mechanic. What do you think he did? Picked up an iron rod, gave the solenoid some tender treatment with a hammer, and the engine started. If only I had remembered that....

If you get the "click", be sure to let go of the ignintion key at once. If the starter motor isn't kicking in properly, you're probably short-circuiting the solenoid, and the battery will run dead in notime.
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Old 01-08-2004, 08:09 AM
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I apologize, cannot resist a little story slightly related to starting maladies:

Renault R10 I used while a parole officer in rural four-county area became reluctant to to start. I made many unannounced visits during the workday so I came to just leave the little sewing maching engine running. Unfortunately, parking brake cable was rusted solid so I carried a brick to chock a tire with. On more than one occasion I discovered the auto moved from my spot and resting against the nearest tree, post, etc. Always parked where other autos would not be stricken if it rolled. Also, on serious slopes I simply shut down knowing I could roll and pop the clutch to regain self-propulsion capability and always found an immobile object to park against rather than trust my chock and the gearbox.

I learned later that some of the local gendarme thought it amusing to move my running auto, apparently it never jumped the chock! I had figured if anybody was doing it, it was a parolee jerking my chain -- here it was the "good guys." And these clowns from different counties spread the word to watch for the chance to do this to me...

BTW, those Renault seats were the most comfortable auto seats my tush has ever visited -- and in such a tiny car. Sorry for the discourse. Saw the "banging on the solenoid fix" and suffered a flash of nostalgia for those days. Have had my share of the rubber mallet incidents.

Recently discovered a few flywheel teeth on our '65 Mustang which are suspicious and the likely cause of a very occasional starting difficulty. There has been no grinding or spinning of the starter, it just locks up on the flywheel so it sounds like the solenoid is bad, just clicking away. Pulling the starter is a thoroughly simple 2-bolt job on this car and I just pull it, move the flywheel a couple teeth, remount starter and go. Defintely easier than replacing the flywheel.

Good luck
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Old 01-08-2004, 10:47 AM
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My brother used beat his '68 Ford Cortina GT starter for over a year until that didn't work anymore.
Just be sure, especially if you're using something harder than rubber, not to whack on the plastic solenoid terminal cover.

Happy Motoring
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Old 01-08-2004, 04:04 PM
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Exclamation

Well, pounding on it shure didn't work. The selenoid is the one clicking for sure. I was able to listen in there while a buddy turned the key. Unfortunately I was unable to test anything because it's super tight there and I can't tell what's what. I will probably pound on it again and then try to remove it. We'll see.

kpb,

coulnd't you just rock the 'stang in gear for the fly wheel to move over to a better spot?
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Old 01-08-2004, 04:27 PM
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mzsmbs -- good idea on the 'stang but it would not work. I think the drive gear from the starter actually gets wedged/hung-up on the flywheel since the rocking in gear trick does not work. Luckily, this has not happened for many miles, perhaps the problem was more the old starter also, a new one is in place now.
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  #9  
Old 01-08-2004, 05:05 PM
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Regarding the Mustang situation - chipped or worn gear teeth...... I've seen this happen where the flywheel gear had dead spot where the starter wouldnt grab. And weirdly enough the engine stopped at/near the same position every time. The only option was to turn the crankshaft so the starter would have fresh teeth to grab onto.

Btw, pulling the starter on the 114 is not quite as easy as it looks.... the top allen bolt can be tough to reach located up there by the transmission tunnel. Its also a job you've gotta do while crawling around under the car. Am guessing that you've already tried spraying the solenoid and starter with WD-40.
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  #10  
Old 01-08-2004, 05:16 PM
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Had a similar situation shortly after aquiring my '71 280s, "ran fine day before, now it won't even turn."

Ever heard of "vapor lock"? I was told then that this was my problem and to pull the spark plugs as vapor lock creates huge pressure in the chamber to the point of "locking" the piston. Though I didn't even understood what was told to me what I did was to manually turn the crank "backwards" a full turn or two. Once I did that it cranked and started just fine. Also it never happened again and that was about a year ago!

Don't know if that is your problem but maybe it's something to consider. Can you turn it manually either way?
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Old 01-08-2004, 06:57 PM
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Question

more pounding and grrr..no positive results.

DieselDog,

no kidding on the removal of the starter. It sure seems impossible or at least a whole bunch of hassle. I am not sure if I'll be able to do it curbside but will attempt it anyway. Is the allen bolt actually reachable? It points towards the firewall and there is fuel line, tranny dipstick tube and some wires there in the way. It seems that maybe the exhaust pipes may have to be dis-assembled, but not sure if that would actually make more room. Sounds like you may have some experience with this. Please help! Here are some other questions:
  • What size is that allen?
  • What do I have to remove to make more room? or any other clues to help make this possible.
  • WD40 ? Do I soak the starter/selenoid with it? tell me more.
  • Is there anything I could do to modify this situation for future?

Haynes Manual just simply states to remove the attaching bolts. Yah right!

Thanks in advance

pyrOman,

Vapor lock? I don't know about that but will address that too, just in case. Are the "" marks a title to a thread? Could not find it.

I've seen some discussion on the direction of manual turning of the engine and seems that one should do it in the direction of normal operation. (clock-wise mostly) If one turns it ccw then the chain is tensed on the wrong side when the engine fires which could cause the chain to jump teeth leading to out of time spark, valve issues etc..Personally I have turned Fords in all directions wothout any adverse effects.


kpb,

Glad that you have a new starter. They are very easy to interchange though. That's what I kind of expected on the Benz too but nooooo, oposite of easy in this case.




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  #12  
Old 01-08-2004, 08:02 PM
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I did the job myself on 114/280 at my driveway in warm weather.... its a 10mm allen. Was seriously thinkin of cutting hole in tranny tunnel to acces the bolt, but somehow managed to get it loose and then use fingers to take it out. Hell, for all i know there is existing access window through the tranny tunnel already in the car.

This was awhile ago, but can remember takin off the easy lower bolt first... and then rocking the collar to loosen the difficult top allen bolt even miniscule amount. Btw, if you dont have allen wrench the correct size then regular 10mm bolt can be adapted to act as allen wrench.

Hey Winterfjord, we dont get enough people posting here from Europe!! Am thinkin you guys see the finest MB cars, stuff we never get in the USA like Gertrag 5 spd versions.


Last edited by 300SDog; 01-08-2004 at 08:35 PM.
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  #13  
Old 01-09-2004, 04:58 AM
Winterfjord
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240DieselDog, Thanks for the warm welcome. I started reading this forum because I'm thinking of buying a cheap Fintail or /8 to replace my two-stroke Saab as a daily driver/hobby car. The problem is that the Swedish MB forums are just plain dead compared to this, and my German isn't really sufficient to make any sense out of German forums.

We definitely see a lot more MB's on this side of the pond, even though Volvo has a pretty tight grip on the Swedish market. For example, most taxis and ambulances i Sweden are based on either Volvo S80 or MB E-series. American cars are a rare sight here, only the SUV's and minivans find buyers.
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  #14  
Old 01-09-2004, 05:27 AM
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This kinda reminds me about whacking the starter on MY Benz about 3-5 mo's ago to start it (it didn't have to be hit everytime though).

I'd tap it a few times, and then try starting it - half the time it needed a second tapping session (and half of those, a third, when I got... erm, more violent ). It started pissing me off because I had to get on the ground to do it and, when I had clean clothes on, it was a very big inconvenience.

So I suppose I was lucky that I found a 420SEL in the junkyard w/o a tranny. And, to make it even better, the starter had been REMOVED ALREADY and was resting in place (even the wire was cut - all I had to do was pull it out!). And not to mention that this starter cost me $12.... I think I got lucky

mz: I think it's time for a new starter. If you want, you can pay me for shipping and I'll send you my old SR59. I believe the mechanics of it are perfectly fine, but the solenoid is shot. It sounds like your solenoid is good though (mine didn't click until I whacked it). It might be worth the few bucks to send it to ya so you can try to combine your solenoid and my motor to make a good starter.
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  #15  
Old 01-09-2004, 09:57 AM
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Winterfjord,
Do you ever see any 2-stroke DKWs in Sweden?
(I have two)
Two years ago, I was at a vintage race here, where four '59 Saabs participated. You should have seen all four of them lined up on the starting grid - 12 cylinders of Swedish power!

Happy Motoring, Mark

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