Use of Kleen Wheels and airflow cooling of brakes- A- DEBATE!! - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

dmorrison · #1 02-11-2004, 12:34 PM

Got to thinking about using Kleen Wheels on my 82 300TD and my Daughters new 83 240D. Iv'e read and heard of all the potential problems using them. I have also heard/read from those who have used them without any problems.
My Daughter had mentioned getting the steel wheel and hubcap setup for her car. So look at the steel wheel and the amount of "cooling holes" compare to the Alloy Wheels. Now cover the steel wheel with the hubcap.

SOOO!!
How much cooling do you really get with the steel wheel/hubcap vs. Is it the same as using the Kleen wheels. But the Kleen wheels keep the alloys clean. Then again so does the hubcap!!
Now you couldargue that the steel wheel/hubcaps were only on the slower 240D. Which would mean less heat buildup. But the hubcap setup were used throught the car line outside of US extensively. So I don't buy the Airflow/Cooling requirement of the Alloys and that you should not use Kleen Wheels.

Let the debate begin.

Dave

Ler · #2 02-11-2004, 12:44 PM

Debate? All I know is that the Kleen Wheels have been on the TD since 84-85, and there's never been any hint of fade from inadequate cooling. Good stuff. Just don't track your car.

96 E300D · #3 02-11-2004, 12:46 PM

I've had a set on my 96E for less than a year and recently took it in for an alignment. I was told that because of lack of proper cooling, I now have to replace both front rotors.
Matt

Rick Miley · #4 02-11-2004, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 96 E300D
96E

That may just be the determining factor. I'll bet W201, W126 and later cars were designed with alloy wheels in mind, while the earlier cars were not.

Wasuchi · #5 02-11-2004, 01:03 PM

I don't think there is a problem..... unless you plan on doing some racing. I have them on all 4 wheels, rear wheels don't really need them and it only helps with the brake dust on the front.... but it does help.

lrg · #6 02-11-2004, 01:33 PM

I've had them on my '85 wagon with stock bundt wheels for more than ten years with no problems. Watch that they are installed properly as there is definitely a correct direction of rotation that frequently gets reversed when some numnuts tire guy rotates or puts on new tires. They have little vents that pull air in from through the wheel (the air flow keeping the dust away from the wheel) that if reversed will run backwards and provide no cooling.

My guess is that the brakes on the 240 and 300 are the same since the weight of the cars are not that different. While power matters you still need the same braking ability when you're in either car (both heavy) going down long hills. You can double check by cross referrencing rotors and pad part numbers for both models. By the way, I only use the dust shields on the front and use them on my 124 as well.

jas2wa · #7 02-11-2004, 02:03 PM

Good point about the cooling fins facing in the right direction...

That aside, I am taking them off my 84 300TD, as my car has cooked its front rotors in the past several months. The kleen wheels had been on the rear for awhile (they are from a previous owner) and then with 4 new tires installed, they ended up on the front. Now, they could be facing the wrong way, and thus not drawing any air for cooling, but either way, given my driving conditions (a couple long downhill cruising-speed-to-stop stopping scenarios to/from work) my rotors are pulsing and shuddering like mad.

I would rather just have all 4 wheels opened up as they were designed to be and have to scrub those little fins, than replace sets of pads and rotors more often than necessary.

jas2wa · #8 02-11-2004, 02:05 PM

btw, that looks JUST like my car in the first post- the blue 123 in the middle picture.

dmorrison · #9 02-11-2004, 05:40 PM

Jas2wa
Actually the cars pics are from dieseladdicts post about his fleet. the steel wheel is from another website.
IF you are removing your Kleen wheels, do you want to sell them?
IF so, how much?

Warped rotors. I warped my SL rotors a couple of years ago. One theory is that by hard braking. Or a long down hill run to a stop like Jas2wa, once you stop you usually do not take your foot off the brake untill the light changes. Police like that idea, no rolling through stop lights. But by keeping the brakes applied you start to heat up that section of the rotor that the pads are touching. this affects the temper of the metal and makes the rotor prone to warping. One cure is to stop and 3-4 seconds later let the car roll about 1/2 a foot or so. Get the hot pad off the rotor section that is building up the heat.
In the aircraft I fly we usually get maximum brake temperature 15-30 minumtes after a high brake application such as a high speed aborted takeoff. The amount of heat built up could be quite significant depending on the amount of braking you have just done. So the rotors could be warping due to stopping and allowing all the heat to tranfer to one spot on the rotor.

96 E300
What was wrong with the rotors? Warped? could you tell as you slowed at the light and were braking. Were the brakes pulsing as you came to a stop? Are the rotors showing any heat damage. A blueing effect in the color of the metal. Ask for all parts to be returned and look at them carefully. If the brakes were wearing normally , no pulsing or grabbing. Then why did they tell you you needed new rotors. Or did they see the Kleen Wheels and figure they can make some money.
As I said, unless you had pulsing, or a leaking caliper, or any other problem then WHY???

Dave

Hot brakes! It can be a factor in the warping of rotors. Here is a picture of a Boeing 777-300ER flight test of an aborted takeoff at maximum gross weight. These brakes will melt and the wheels and tires will have to be replace where the 777 came to a stop. The tires will blow the fuse plugs and go flat and the brakes will be destroyed.

Those glowing things are the brakes!!

Rick Miley · #10 02-11-2004, 08:52 PM

Dave, the leftmost picture you posted above is actually an aluminum wheel. There is also a steel version that has 4 slots instead of those holes, so there is even less airflow. I have both versions here.

speace · #11 02-11-2004, 10:09 PM

After hurrying across town in my 400E one day after work trying to make it to a particular store before closing, my brakes overheated and faded away to almost nothing.

I went home and removed my Kleen Wheels and have not seen the problem since. Now I am searching for a good brake pad that doesn't make so much dust.

So far I've learned that EBC Green Stuff pads require too much pedal pressure and melt down standard grade rotors in no-time...

The quest for having clean wheels continues...

PaulH · #12 02-11-2004, 10:42 PM

I've had Kleen Wheels on my heavy SDL for about 15 years and have had no problems! I drive in Wash. DC traffic in the summer when it gets over 100F, stop and go, stop and go. Later I'm on the crazy Washington Beltway where speeds exceed 80 MPH and then come to a complete stop for what seems as no reason at all. I've never had brake fade or rotor problems. NO PROBLEMS!

96 E300D · #13 02-12-2004, 12:25 AM

dmorrison
Apparently the rotors have turned the color blue that usually indicates high heat. I haven't noticed much of a fade or any shuddering but the mechanic seemed to think they could go out without warning in the near future. I'm in the process of looking at rotors which brings up a another issue of stock rotors or drilled?
Matt

gsxr · #14 02-12-2004, 03:06 PM

For non-aggressive street driving, with no steep hills in your area, Kleen Wheels should present NO problems. On cars with somewhat marginal brakes in the first place, that might present a problem... Mercedes was not one to err on the side of caution in that area for some strange reason. Both the 400E and 500E got brake upgrades after the first year or so of production due to the originals being too damn small. You can get bigger brakes for the E420 that should help any fading problems you may encounter.

For brake pads, I am NOT a fan of EBC pads, but some people really like them. The one pad that I have heard almost zero complaints about is the Porterfield R4-S. Well, no performance complaints, just whining about the price, at ~$140/set front and ~$80/set rear (varies depending on the car, and race compound R4 costs more.) They are VERY low dust and have fantastic stopping power.

DO NOT use drilled rotors. They start cracking at the drilled holes. Allegedly the only way to avoid that is to buy rotors that have the holes cast in, not drilled. That's what Porsche does on all their rotors. I heard Zimmerman aftermarket rotors have cast holes (not drilled) but I'm not sure about that. Long story short, the holes are more for looks than cooling or anything else, really... I used to use them, then switched to ATE PowerDiscs, and finally have gone to OE dealer rotors which are Blanchard ground (many aftermarket rotors are not), and use a dry anti-corrosion coating instead of oil. Really serious folks have their rotor cryo-treated as well!

My recommendation? Skip the Kleen Wheels if you drive hard. For performance, low-dust pads, use Porterfield if you can afford them, othewise use Textar "Yellow Box" pads (which is actually the OE compound for Euro MB models). For rotors, I like OE or PowerDiscs, but just avoid drilled rotors. If you drive hard and are having trouble with fading, you need to upgrade your brakes. Here's a spreadsheet with sizes & part numbers for W124 brakes:

http://www.meimann.com/docs/mercedes/124_brakes.pdf

You can swap on the V8 brakes to 6cyl with good results, but the V8 models really need 320mm minimum (IMO), and now StopTech offers a massive 350mm (14-inch!) kit as well!

Holson Adi · #15 02-12-2004, 04:09 PM

My car came from the selling dealer with new tires, new brakes all around, and these kleen wheels in the front wheels.

I took them off one day just to find out if it made any difference but I have learned that I don't drive aggressively and the brake dust accumulation without the shield was unbelievable!!

so I put them back on.