How much do you pay for biodiesel? - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

phidauex · #46 01-19-2005, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

They said it doesn't change the power levels on the dyno. So, if we had higher cetane, would't that change the numbers on a dyno for the positive? If so, I would assume that biodiesel.org would be touting it. OK, so lets say it does keep the fuel system clean an has greater lubricity. What does that translate to in savings over the course of time? IE, will it pay for itself in the long run from maintenance and/or repair savings and after how long?

Power levels stay pretty constant with BD. It has fewer BTUs per lb than #2 diesel, but thats because it carries its own oxygen. The extra oxygen means cleaner burning and more complete combustion which gives us the lowered emissions and equivalent power output of #2.

A comment on ULSD.. Both biodiesel and ultra low sulfur diesel fuel allow the use of catalytic converters, which, combined with ignition timing changes, removes the NOX increase completely, and further cuts particulate emissions. However, ULSD has been criticised for having a lower lubricity. BD to the rescue! .25% biodiesel blends have been shown to add more lubricity to fuel than traditional sulfur additives. B2 and B5 go way beyond that. Why shouldn't all of California be using B5 at the pumps? Sure its only 5%, but 5% of all the diesel sold in CA (especially when you take industry and agriculture into account), is a LOT of fuel. I mean, we keep talking about drops in the bucket, but full bucket is just a lot of drops. Each little bit counts.

In conservation, there is a theory that encourages taking one process and making it as efficient as possible. There is another theory that encourages taking all processes, and making them a little more efficient, in the easiest way possible. Find the low hanging fruit, and get that first! B5 everywhere is a low hanging fruit. B100 everywhere may not be reasonable right away.

Quiting use of all plastics is not a low hanging fruit. Reusing and recycling plastics, and being judicious about their use, is easy. If we go around and get all the little easy things first, we'll find we've come a long way, and can continue to work on the next challenge.

Even among tree-huggers, there are very different ideas about how these things should progress if they are going to have the most effect.

peace,
sam

CannonBall · #47 01-21-2005, 04:03 PM

Reusing yes, recycling, no. Recycling plastics requires the use of more fossil fuels then just making new plastics. I guess I could get into it, but it really is WAY off track, recycling makes people feel good, they think they’re doing something good; in fact the outcome is the opposite of their objective. Only about 1/3 of the plastic people throw in containers actually ends up being recycled. Honestly, recycling anything except aluminum can’s is a waste of time and resources.

I hear you on b2 as well, I was considering putting a cat I had laying around onto my MB, but I run #2 so much that I think I’d fry it anyway. On the subject of drops in the bucket, all those drops cost money, and many people aren’t willing to pay more for fuel bottom line, especially when there is no chance of a global weather catastrophe e.g. “The Day After Tomorrow.” You seem pretty reasonable though, if only fanatical environmentalists would consider small changes they would be much easier to put up with.
-Nate

phidauex · #48 01-21-2005, 04:57 PM

Recycling efficiency depends on the method of recycling, and the plastic being recycled, and the 'feedstock' you are getting it from. #2 bottles recycle really efficiently. Styrofoam, not so efficiently! But you are right, plastic recycling isn't a solution by itself.

Its unfortunate that people aren't willing to 'pay it forward' for the future. And while climate change certainly won't happen overnight, the same changes over 50 years will be just as disasterous, if no one plans ahead.

Regarding fanatics... As usual, its the fanatics in any issue who get the most visibility. When you really start to find out what people's opinions are, you usually find that most people are pretty reasonable. I try to ignore fanatics in just about any debate.

peace,
Sam

aklim · #49 01-21-2005, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phidauex

Its unfortunate that people aren't willing to 'pay it forward' for the future. And while climate change certainly won't happen overnight, the same changes over 50 years will be just as disasterous, if no one plans ahead.

This is the most common form of alarmist talk tho. I have an illness. At this rate I will be dead in a year. No kidding. Maybe they will have a cure at the doctor's office? Maybe my body will heal itself? Maybe this, that or the other.

Most of us here probably won't be around in 50 years for one thing. Another thing is that at this rate, should nothing change, in 50 years we might have a problem on our hands. However, that means that there is nothing between now and the desaster that will fix the problem. That rules out any new scientific and/or technical device that will fix the damage done, also rules out that we will colonize another planet in the solar system (yes it is inconceievable now but who knows in 10, 20 or 30 years what will happen), etc, etc.

aklim · #50 01-21-2005, 09:19 PM

People talk of the better lubricity that BD has. No one has shown me numbers of how much more we actually need before it goes to the point of deminishing returns. As such, how much BD is going to be helpful? Is B100 going to be enough, more than enough or still not enough? Will B2 be enough or not enough? How about B20, B30, etc, etc? What is enough and what is more than enough?

OK. Lets say that a new IP costs $1500 and lasts 150,000 miles, for the sake of arguement. Lets say a tank of B100 costs me $20 more than regular diesel. That means at 75 tanks, I will have paid for a new IP. So, the question is, how much more will it extend my IP's life to justify the extra cost? If you could answer that question, maybe you can show people that they should go with BD.

The problem I see is that the savings in maintenance are mentioned but no hard figures to back them up which makes that savings statement pretty much worthless. Other than the helping of farmers, the environment and the perceieved striving for independence on foriegn oil, I don't really see solid gains. As to the independence issue, diesel consumption isn't that big as far as cars go in USA. Besides our cars, how many diesels do you see on the road WRT gas cars? How much oil by-products do you see in your daily life? All of these and more factors will not change with us going totally BD.

I will probably run a couple of tanks of B100 thru my car next year because I want to clean out the fuel system when I am about to change the filters. However, for daily use, it is a hard sell because people have spouted issues with no solid facts.

Californian · #51 01-21-2005, 09:50 PM

I have heard that Biodiesel will hurt rubber parts. Any thoughts ? thanks.

83-240D · #52 01-22-2005, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Californian

I have heard that Biodiesel will hurt rubber parts. Any thoughts ? thanks.

according to girl mark(www.veggieavenger.com) no it won't. her early 90's powerstroke has never had the rubber fuel lines changed she says.

back to subject....b100 is becoming available from producer in mpls area. cost is $3gal/55 gal barrel +
10$ for the barrel. price break at 5 barrels.

http://forums.biodieselnow.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=33

see thread b100 in barrels about third one down.

Californian · #53 01-22-2005, 10:26 AM

There is a guy locally who sells SVO for $1 a gallon per 55 gallon drum. Probably off-spec oil from an oil distributor. How involved is it to convert it to Bio Diesel ?

phantoms · #54 01-22-2005, 10:51 AM

SVO is Straight Vegtable Oil. Usually unused cooking oil. I imagine there would be just as much involved in converting it as any other source.

83-240D · #55 01-22-2005, 02:54 PM

www.biodiesel.org

this is the national biodiesel board. lots and lots of info.

see the forum section of

www.veggieavenger.com

for information on building a still, excuse me, a reactor(still not a great word either, right?) for making bio d.

svo for a buck must be wvo cleaned. svo is a lot more expensive. is he pressing his own seeds and producing it? a buck a gallon for wvo makes more sense.

aklim, the nbb says even a 2% blend will improve lubricity for the pump. right now in chgo the b20 price is 14 cents more than d2 premium 45 cetane. 2.31 vs 2.17. the mobil d2 i can get is a buck 97. its up to you. i don't think there has been enough research done to tell you which blend to buy and how much improvement it will give. we are really still(theres that word again) at the birth of a movement.

i called rote oil in lg and they told me they don't fuel cars. they want to deliver bulk. although i have read on the www.biodieselnow.com or org(don't remember) that someone had filled his golf there in the last 2 years. road ready in bensenville at ellis and devon has a b20 pump mixed with 45c d2. this past thurs. it was priced at 2.31 down from 2.37 the sat. before. it is a gated 24/7 facility that is credit card activated with a poro potty. no store, no clerk just fuel.

phidauex · #56 01-22-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 83-240D

for information on building a still, excuse me, a reactor(still not a great word either, right?) for making bio d.

'Reactor' is the right word. 'Processor' is common and correct as well.

Still isn't really correct, since unless you are doing methanol recovery, you aren't really distilling anything. Though water heaters, configured differently, do make pretty good stills.

Aklim, I really do want to get you some good hard numbers. Many of the studies I'm running into or seeing referenced are European studies, which are hard to find, and may not be in a language I understand, however, they are significant. France, for instance, has nothing but B5 at the pumps, with B30 and B50 not being uncommon. The cost of biodiesel production is still more expensive than the cost of petroleum refining for a variety of reasons (mostly scale), so they definately had reasons for moving to B5. Germany is considering a similar move, as biodiesel blends are already available in nearly every part of the country, and is already cheaper by a few cents per gallon than petroleum diesel.

---- Continuing to look

Here is an online version of a paper I had read recently about lubricity of biodiesel. Note that in the paper they refer to biodiesel as 'methyl soyate' which is the same thing.

http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/More%20papers/paper7.pdf

Here is a similar paper with the same goals, and the same findings:

http://www.uidaho.edu/bioenergy/BiodieselEd/publication/06.pdf

Both show that for fuel, particularly the ULSD fuel referenced in the second paper, #2 diesel can use as little as 1% biodiesel to get the increase in lubricity required to to meet the Engine Manufacturer's Association requirements for lubricity, while #1 ULS diesel needs 5-6% to reach the EMA standards.

ULSD is slowly becoming a legal reality, and biodiesel is the cheapest way to get the lubricity up to standard levels, let alone increase it to higher levels.

peace,
sam

hockeynut · #57 01-22-2005, 06:36 PM

I can't believe it, I just found out a little town 10 miles from me has a station selling bio diesel

Two reasons:
1. The little town is the corporate headquarters for Organic Valley, the largest organic food distributor in the nation. They have a fleet of trucks that runs stuff aroung from wharehouse to creamery, to distribution points, etc. They told the local gas station they wanted to run bio in thier fleet.
2. This is a farming community and the farmers are starting to see the light in regards to bio diesel and it's relationship to crop demand and "growing" your fuel.

I spoke with the station owner and he said that Cenex just completed facilities at thier Madison refinery to produce bio diesel. He is currently only selling B5 due to winter/temp concerns, but this spring will probably go to B20. He is selling the B5 for $2.07 gal. I can't wait to fill up - my Mercedes is parked for the winter, but I am racking up serious miles on the Jetta running a kid around for hockey. I wonder if I can stop using an additive (Stanadyne or Red Line 85+)if I'm using bio diesel?

aklim · #58 01-22-2005, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phidauex

Here is an online version of a paper I had read recently about lubricity of biodiesel. Note that in the paper they refer to biodiesel as 'methyl soyate' which is the same thing.

http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/More%20papers/paper7.pdf

Here is a similar paper with the same goals, and the same findings:

http://www.uidaho.edu/bioenergy/BiodieselEd/publication/06.pdf

Both show that for fuel, particularly the ULSD fuel referenced in the second paper, #2 diesel can use as little as 1% biodiesel to get the increase in lubricity required to to meet the Engine Manufacturer's Association requirements for lubricity, while #1 ULS diesel needs 5-6% to reach the EMA standards.

ULSD is slowly becoming a legal reality, and biodiesel is the cheapest way to get the lubricity up to standard levels, let alone increase it to higher levels.

peace,
sam

Those are the sort of data I am looking for. If my under, which is standing, is correct we can use B2 to get the lubricity to manufacturer's specs for now and when the new standard comes into place, we can up to B5 and be fine. Therefore B100 is probably not necessary.

Like I said, I probably will run a couple tanks of B100 just to flush the system throughly and use some diesel lubricant additive till B5 comes to my town.

aklim · #59 01-22-2005, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeynut

I can't believe it, I just found out a little town 10 miles from me has a station selling bio diesel

Two reasons:
1. The little town is the corporate headquarters for Organic Valley, the largest organic food distributor in the nation. They have a fleet of trucks that runs stuff aroung from wharehouse to creamery, to distribution points, etc. They told the local gas station they wanted to run bio in thier fleet.
2. This is a farming community and the farmers are starting to see the light in regards to bio diesel and it's relationship to crop demand and "growing" your fuel.

I spoke with the station owner and he said that Cenex just completed facilities at thier Madison refinery to produce bio diesel. He is currently only selling B5 due to winter/temp concerns, but this spring will probably go to B20. He is selling the B5 for $2.07 gal. I can't wait to fill up - my Mercedes is parked for the winter, but I am racking up serious miles on the Jetta running a kid around for hockey. I wonder if I can stop using an additive (Stanadyne or Red Line 85+)if I'm using bio diesel?

Where is this town at and where will they sell it also? I am in Madison and would be interested in going to B5 at that price.

83-240D · #60 01-22-2005, 06:46 PM

I wonder if I can stop using an additive (Stanadyne or Red Line 85+)if I'm using bio diesel?
__________________

the d2 we get is 45c and on the d2 pumps it lists all the reasons why the fuel is good. it also says that the fuel is good to -40. well, being also in wis., if it is -40 we are not going out! much like today except to get the driveway plowed and chase the annoying neighbor from infront of my house so i could use the space for my cars.

o yeah...there is a pump in de pere that has b20. yeah i know a long way to go but if you just happen to be visitong g.b for some reason or on the way back from door cty you can stop. it is listed on the retailers board at www.biodiesel.org