Best WVO Kits - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

notfarnow · #46 01-31-2008, 11:03 AM

I'm surprised to see people recommending HiH for heat.

Above and beyond the cost and hassle to install, I can't imagine risking a HiH leak considering the widespread availability of heated fuel pickups, FPHEs and Vegtherms.

A good debate on HiH:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/3961053671?r=3961053671#3961053671

Biodiesel300TD · #47 01-31-2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pizzachef

And they use the hose-in-hose style supply and return lines...which is better for heating the fuel than hose-on-hose. If you're careful with your installation (i.e. don't kink the aluminum fuel line when you're working with it), you'll have no problems.

The thing is you won't know you have a problem. If the fuel line inside is leaking and allowing coolant into your fuel you can't see that until your engine eats itself up trying to run on coolant. Or you will be putting fuel into your coolant system which is going to lower the cooling affect. Despite the better heating capabilities of the HIH style, it is safer to use HOH. If you bundle the fuel lines and coolant lines tightly, and insulate them you'll be fine. And injector line heater work wonders. They get up to something like 250F and they are after the IP so there is no worry about wear on the IP and you are heating the oil up to way beyond the suggested minimum of 160F that everyone says you need to be at. With my HOH setup with injector line heaters, the injector bodies get up to over 180F.

a2t · #48 02-10-2008, 11:29 PM

Lots of good info on this thread

I guess I agree on the HIH. I was skeptical as hell about it on my Frybrid, still am.

It will transfer heat better, but it is a much bigger risk. I prob dont need that in Atlanta...

Anyways, as for long term reliability, thats interesting - so I shouldnt expect to get 100k out of the existing engine? I will test that theory. Im at 20k on veg now and things are great. I will keep very close watch of any problems and will report back here if I find any. I hope not!

Another thing Im going to add - Be VERY careful how you route the lines, HIH, HOH, whatever. These benzs dont clear the ground by much and Ive already scraped the hell out of my lines on things like big speed bumps, steep driveways, ect... I think its best to run the lines INSIDE the car if possible, or at the very least higher than the bottom of the car (somehow??).

I will prob re-route the lines due to the beating they are taking under the car.

Jenn300TD · #49 05-22-2008, 12:55 PM

Hi, I wonder if anyone can tell me about Elbetts kits and availability in the eastern U.S.
Thank you,
Jenn

cgoodwin · #50 01-19-2010, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaoneill

I put together a two tank system and have driven a little over 40K miles on wvo with no real issues. If I were to have purchased a kit it would have been a frybrid but, as indicated above, service is not Chris's forte. Took me months and email reminders just to get the stainless steel valves I ordered from them.

I have never sold stainless steel valves.

We have often been backordered on parts, this is partly because before I spent three years trying different valves, everyone was using plastic pollak valves. Frybrid came out with a better mousetrap and got flooded with orders, within months all the competitors ripped off the product and began offering similar valves, many vendors meant lower order levels and they were able to keep up.

I personally design and test every component, I make most of them with my own hands as well.

Regarding how long it takes to switch over in the cold: That depends on the vehicle and driving style, the short answer is "as soon as the coolant reaches 180F", the longer answer is that if your vehicle takes long to heat up then you are doing it no favors, diesels should not be run hard below 160F of coolant temp. If your vehicle takes long to warm up consider the following.

Install a block heater
Replace your thermostat (they wear out in about a year)
Install a winter front (blocks most of the radiator)

Regarding aluminum tube in hose fuel lines: I pioneered the use of this style of fuel line because PEX is an insulator not a heat conductor, is not rated for fuel and is only rated for 135F. In installed correctly you should never have an issue, people voice concerns about the aluminum line corroding and my response is "The aluminum line has a greater wall thickness than your radiator or heater core, regular maintenance of any cooling system includes running the proper coolant and checking your electrical system for electrolysis" Notes on both can be found here: http://www.frybrid.com/coolant.htm and http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?p=44052#post44052 Your radiator and heater will fail first.

a2t · #51 01-21-2010, 06:26 PM

FWIW, I have both the delivery and return lines complete laying in my yard from my frybrid install (my neighbors must love me

). The install was completed in 2006 and I drove the frybrid kit ~50k miles. The aluminum line within the hoses is fine, there is no corrosion. I can take pics if you want...

My concern with HIH is that when the rubber line breaks you've got to replace the whole run, which is a real pain. So, protect the HIH lines well and you will be fine. But for warmer climates like Atlanta, I would probably of been OK with HOH.

By the way, I didnt have an issue with the Frybrid kit in 50k miles. Everything functioned as day 1 on the removal when I sold the car. Its all waiting for the next diesel, hopefully soon. $48/tank in the corrado is really pisssing me off.

cgoodwin · #52 01-21-2010, 06:34 PM

HOH= Hose on Hose, rubber hoses bundled and hopefully insulated
HIH= Hose in Hose, Yes many people have made lines with a rubber line inside a larger rubber hose with all sorts of terminating ends, the use of flexible PEX inside hose is often referred to as HIH.
TIH= The use of metal tubing inside a coolant jacket in a rubber hose. I pioneered this design, first with copper, then aluminum, search all the forums and the first reference you will find is "New Frybrid Heated Aluminum Fuel Line"

I was also the first to utilize and market a Final Fuel Heat Exchanger, a coil at first then a FPHE. Both are necessary.

HOH is the least efficient way possible to heat fuel. Rubber is an insulator because it does not transfer heat well, in a HOH configuration you have round hoses wrapped together, they only contact the fuel line in two very small areas illustrated in red in the attached drawing, compared to the full contact (also in red) of an aluminum fuel like, aluminum which is used as a heat sink because of its phenomenal heat transfer properties.

In addition bundled lines go against the concept of heat transfer, counter flow increases efficiency by nearly 50% with the fuel feed and return lines bundled with the coolant feed and return lines, you do not have counter flow.

Why do we heat lines, for two reasons, the first is to reduce the CV (flow coefficient or resistance to flow) of the line, , you can do this one of two ways, you can increase the diameter of the hose and take advantage of laminar flow, or you can reduce the viscosity of the liquid (Viscosity= resistance of a liquid to shear forces (and hence to flow)). Since a HOH line is nowhere as efficient as TIH in the transfer of heat which we know will reduce the viscosity of the oil the CV of HOH will be much greater.

The second reason is to begin heating the fuel as it moves toward the engine, TIH is so efficient at reducing the CV of the fuel line AND transferring heat that a much smaller final fuel heat exchanger (which will again have lower CV than a larger unit) can be used since the line itself has served as a heat exchanger.

The last argument is that aluminum line can corrode and fail. The simple fact is that the radiator and heater core are also aluminum with the same coolant flowing through them and are much, much thinner that the aluminum fuel line, therefore any corrosion taking place in the cooling system due to electrolysis or improper chemical balance will destroy the radiator and heater core long before the fuel line - so if you see steam pouring out of the hood or hot coolant spraying on your legs - stop.

To review:

Rubber is a thermal insulator, aluminum a thermal conductor therefore aluminum will conduct heat much better.

HOH has much less contact area and therefore heat transfer than TIH.

Being less efficient than aluminum, the CV of HOH will be much higher for equal sized lines.

Having low heat transfer means that a HOH system will require a larger final fuel heat exchanger than a TIH system, both the larger final fuel heat exchanger and the HOH will drastically increase the CV of the system.

Major cooling system components are made of the same aluminum as the TIH lines and are thinner therefore would fail before the fuel lines in the event of electrolysis or chemical imbalance induced corrosion.

PAUL- When you get ready to install the kit in the new vehicle let me know if there are any parts you need!

yuke · #53 01-22-2010, 09:25 AM

I have a greasecar kit in my 85 300SD it is working very well.I bought a used Frybrid kit to put in a 89 Dodge cummins because the Frybrid does have some advantages over Greasecar but does cost more and from what I hear has poor customer relationships.So it depends what you are willing to spend but the Greasecar will work well enough.

cgoodwin · #54 01-22-2010, 01:36 PM

Greasecar uses PEX for fuel like, the same stuff that feeds water to your dishwasher, it is rated to only 135F and not rated for fuel. Frybrid uses FAA approved aluminum fuel line, the same stuff used in planes and race cars.

They do not have a return line to the tank so when you try to purge the system you have to force fuel back through the feed line and backwards through the filter, in addition using the feed line to purge the system means that if you are trying to purge air, you have to force diesel fuel backwards through the feed line and filter all the way back to the tank.

They offer a final fuel heat exchanger as an added option, we include it because without it you simply can not get the VO hot enough. We provide a controller that automates switch over and purge and sets an alarm if you shut down on VO, thiers is an option, this makes no sense and leaves you guessing when the oil is hot enough to switch without damaging fuel system components.

Our system uses an inductive fuel level sender with no moving parts the will automatically purge the system, return to diesel and not allow the system to switch to VO if there is not fuel in the tank, they use a regular arm type sender made of reactive metals.

They have a copper coil in the tank that heats the whole tank with a pex pickup line laying in the tank bottom, we have a highly efficient in-tank exchanger made of non-reactive metals that incorporates a heat shield and resovoir with the feed and return lines running to the bottom of the resovoir, so if you have 1/4 tank and corner the fuel can't slosh away from the pickup causing air to be introduced into the fuel system, the heat shield heats the fuel being drawn up while only allowing enough heat to escape to the rest of the tank to keep it liquid but not accellerate oxidative polymerization of the fuel and we use no reactive metals.

If you add everything we include to thier kit it would cost twice as much as ours because you would be completely rebuilding the kit.

oldsinner111 · #55 01-22-2010, 03:10 PM

fattywagons has the hottest system.However I added a veggie tank,and a heatexchanger.

JEBalles · #56 01-22-2010, 04:24 PM

I have not been impressed with the Greasecar kit the more I learn about it. Cgoodwin is right, they do not have enough heat exchange. I've added a 20 plate FPHE and I'm adding injector line heaters. Can't speak for the other things. I will say that the Frybrid kit has overall more though put into it, but it is more expensive.

A question on the pex line: When you say it's not rated for fuel or above 135* F, what does this mean exactly? What could happen?

GregMN · #57 01-22-2010, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEBalles

A question on the pex line: When you say it's not rated for fuel or above 135* F, what does this mean exactly? What could happen?

It would melt and fail. Then your wife would walk out to the parking ramp after work to find 15 gallons of grease in a puddle coming out from under her car. She would look around to see if anyone was watching, drive home on diesel, and not park on that level of the ramp again for quite awhile.

JEBalles · #58 01-22-2010, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregMN

It would melt and fail. Then your wife would walk out to the parking ramp after work to find 15 gallons of grease in a puddle coming out from under her car. She would look around to see if anyone was watching, drive home on diesel, and not park on that level of the ramp again for quite awhile.

Alright, so I take it this has happened to you before. I've had a pex HIH for about a year and a half now. Does it happen slowly? What's the best to replace it with? Aluminum?

Edit: I started searching around and I've found max temps. for PEX at 180-210*F (80-90*C). I'd be using it at the end of the spectrum, but presumably it'd still work. Are those numbers different with oil?