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  #46  
Old 11-24-2008, 11:03 AM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson View Post
I think it is important to note that the outright rejection of the hydrogen technology by some people is fascinating in that they invoke "science" to defend same.
Its not outright rejection, its an understanding of hydrogen's inherent limitations and inefficiencies. The whole reason there is no hydrogen infrastructure right now, despite it being most abundant chemical element on earth, is its not commonly found except in chemical compounds (water, hydrocarbons). The energy it takes to extract the hydrogen from those compounds exceeds the energy content of the hydrogen itself.

Quote:
Remember, you were the gentleman that photographed the over-the-road truck with the boosting device on it.
I photographed it because I was amazed that the company would even waste money on such a frivolous device, especially with a driver so ignorant about it's basic function. To date that is the ONLY one I have seen on any of the trucks, and yes, I have been looking out for more.

Quote:
The head of the company that runs that truck is heavily involved with the government in promoting/testing fuel saving technology.
That is false information. The company in question is privately owned by Jerry Moise, whom I have met, and has no government contracts outside of hauling the occasional cargo shipments.

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They take scientific method seriously.
No, they don't. The driver of that truck was completely ignorant of its basic operation. He thought it let him run the A/C with the engine off!

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Your results were actually positive.
Incorrect again, they were inconclusive. A 0.1mpg change in economy not bad but it was definitely not good and not even in the ballpark of the 20%+ the scammers claim.


Last edited by ForcedInduction; 11-24-2008 at 11:09 AM.
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  #47  
Old 11-24-2008, 11:14 AM
ForcedInduction
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Take a look at BMW's Hydrogen 7. Its powered by a 438hp V12 that makes only 256hp and 4.7mpg when running on hydrogen. The BMW has a 30 gallon liquid hydrogen tank chilled to -423*f and it only has a 125mile range on that 30 gallons.

That is the ultimate test of how inefficient hydrogen really is and also why these little water filled tubes cannot possibly work. The 2.5 liters per minute of H2 they claim to produce (on average, some are actually less) isn't even enough to idle the engine. To get a 20%+ improvement in economy at highway speeds they would have to produce FAR more than that.

Last edited by ForcedInduction; 11-24-2008 at 11:22 AM.
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  #48  
Old 11-24-2008, 11:55 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Its not outright rejection, its an understanding of hydrogen's inherent limitations and inefficiencies. The whole reason there is no hydrogen infrastructure right now, despite it being most abundant chemical element on earth, is its not commonly found except in chemical compounds (water, hydrocarbons). The energy it takes to extract the hydrogen from those compounds exceeds the energy content of the hydrogen itself.
Read MIT's plasmatron patents. The process dissociates hydrogen. On board. They even give a primer about the electrochemistry and physics involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
I photographed it because I was amazed that the company would even waste money on such a frivolous device, especially with a driver so ignorant about it's basic function. To date that is the ONLY one I have seen on any of the trucks, and yes, I have been looking out for more.
Yes, here is one of your pictures of the truck:



Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
That is false information. The company in question is privately owned by Jerry Moise, whom I have met, and has no government contracts outside of hauling the occasional cargo shipments.
Jerry Moyse would know that his company is one of the charter members of the EPA SmartWay program, I think. The EPA is an arm of the government -- see my chain of reasoning?

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/smartway/transport/partner-list/swift.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
No, they don't. The driver of that truck was completely ignorant of its basic operation. He thought it let him run the A/C with the engine off!
Surely you will forgive the driver for mistaking that unadvertized device for one of the other advertized devices in the SmartWay program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Incorrect again, they were inconclusive. A 0.1mpg change in economy not bad but it was definitely not good and not even in the ballpark of the 20%+ the scammers claim.
"Positive" is in the quantitative sense, not the qualitative sense. My characterization is correct.
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  #49  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:00 PM
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Do some studying on the nature of a catalyst. The hydrogen here is ultimately consumed as a fuel but that does not mean it does not act as a catalyst in the reaction prior to that stage.

This is exactly what I mean about the dangers of extrapolating data. You are completely missing the point about what could be happening at ultra low levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Take a look at BMW's Hydrogen 7. Its powered by a 438hp V12 that makes only 256hp and 4.7mpg when running on hydrogen. The BMW has a 30 gallon liquid hydrogen tank chilled to -423*f and it only has a 125mile range on that 30 gallons.

That is the ultimate test of how inefficient hydrogen really is and also why these little water filled tubes cannot possibly work. The 2.5 liters per minute of H2 they claim to produce (on average, some are actually less) isn't even enough to idle the engine. To get a 20%+ improvement in economy at highway speeds they would have to produce FAR more than that.
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  #50  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:10 PM
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Copyright!

Just received this from Forced Induction:

Quote:
Hello,

You do not have permission to use my copyrighted image (located at http://www.crank-scrapers.com/Swift_Freightliner_truck.jpg
).

Please remove it immediately.

Thank you,
Lance Newcomb.
Don't worry, Lance. I will -- nice to see the true colors.
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  #51  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:13 PM
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Posts: 4,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson View Post

Don't worry, Lance. I will -- nice to see the true colors.

Bad form.

That involves his employment.
__________________

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  #52  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt20 View Post
Bad form.

That involves his employment.
Sir,

Lance publicly uploaded that image and several others to this very forum many months ago. He was crawling all over the rig with a camera.
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  #53  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:16 PM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson View Post
Read MIT's plasmatron patents. The process dissociates hydrogen. On board.
So? If it was an efficient method of producing raw hydrogen the inventors would be billionaires overnight from licensing/selling their design. The fact is its not. Anyone can make hydrogen, it just takes large amounts of energy to do it.

Quote:
Yes, here is one of your pictures of the truck:
FYI, you did not seek permission to use my copyrighted picture. Please remove it from your server.

Quote:
Jerry Moyse would know that his company is one of the charter members of the EPA SmartWay program, I think. The EPA is an arm of the government -- see my chain of reasoning?
No. Have you ever noticed that the EPA frequently doesn't work inline with the government's plans or wishes?

Quote:
My characterization is correct.
You fail once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson View Post
Do some studying on the nature of a catalyst. The hydrogen here is ultimately consumed as a fuel but that does not mean it does not act as a catalyst in the reaction prior to that stage.
Unfortunately you do not know what a catalyst is.

catalyst |ˈkatl-ist|
noun
a substance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction without itself undergoing any permanent chemical change.

Since there is no raw hydrogen or H2 coming out the exhaust you disproved your own idea. The second fact is that H2 does not come in contact with the raw Diesel in order to change it. By the time it does contact it, the diesel is already in the process of combustion and it only serves as the H2's ignition source.

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completely missing the point about what could be happening at ultra low levels.
I agree, you are missing the point.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson View Post
Don't worry, Lance. I will -- nice to see the true colors.
If you did it correctly in the first place by seeking my permission, it would have happened differently.
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  #54  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:17 PM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson View Post
Sir,

Lance publicly uploaded that image and several others to this very forum many months ago. He was crawling all over the rig with a camera.
Sir, the fact that it is a COPYRIGHTED IMAGE hosted on a private server gives you no right to reproduce it without my permission. Remove it immediately.
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  #55  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Sir, the fact that it is a COPYRIGHTED IMAGE hosted on a private server gives you no right to reproduce it without my permission. Remove it immediately.
Lance, I did remove it. BTW, you only claimed copyright after it served to discredit your own argument.
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  #56  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:25 PM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson View Post
nice to see the true colors.
Its also nice to see your true colors too. Notice the site he was hosting from crank-scrapers._om and his email is sales%crank-scrapers._om. Obviously you are a salesman and, like others pushing the HHO scam, you stand to make profit on its "success".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson View Post
BTW, you only claimed copyright after it served to discredit your own argument.
You are incorrect once again. I asked you to remove it because if the wrong people see that image it could jeopardize my employment.

Last edited by ForcedInduction; 11-24-2008 at 12:32 PM.
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  #57  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
So? If it was an efficient method of producing raw hydrogen the inventors would be billionaires overnight from licensing/selling their design. The fact is its not. Anyone can make hydrogen, it just takes large amounts of energy to do it.
Errrr... Are you aware of who/what Arvin Meritor is? They are licensing the patent and doing further research. Yikes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
No. Have you ever noticed that the EPA frequently doesn't work inline with the government's plans or wishes?
There is no stricture for consistency on the part of the government. It also often exempts itself from its own rules. Welcome to the USA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
You fail once again.
No, I was awake when the teacher was explaining the number line and what an integer was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Unfortunately you do not know what a catalyst is.

catalyst |ˈkatl-ist|
noun
a substance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction without itself undergoing any permanent chemical change.

Since there is no raw hydrogen or H2 coming out the exhaust you disproved your own idea. The second fact is that H2 does not come in contact with the raw Diesel in order to change it. By the time it does contact it, the diesel is already in the process of combustion and it only serves as the H2's ignition source.
It is a pity you do not read my comments carefully. Oh well.
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  #58  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:35 PM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson View Post
They are licensing the patent and doing further research.
I have yet to see anything about cheaply produced hydrogen outside of the HHO scams.

Quote:
It is a pity you do not read my comments carefully.
No, its sad that you don't have a dictionary to look up what a catalyst actually does.
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  #59  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:38 PM
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Posts: 253
My God, (sorry God) you are disingenous.

Are you aware that your previous unedited reply landed in my inbox? Now you adjust your response to be the victim. Wow.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
---Quote (Originally by Kevin Johnson)---
Don't worry, Lance. I will -- nice to see the true colors.
---End Quote---
If you did it correctly in the first place by seeking my permission, it would have happened differently.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Its also nice to see your true colors too. Notice the site he was hosting from crank-scrapers._om and his email is sales%crank-scrapers._om. Obviously you are a salesman and, like others pushing the HHO scam, you stand to make profit on its "success".




You are incorrect once again. I asked you to remove it because if the wrong people see that image it could jeopardize my employment.
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  #60  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
I have yet to see anything about cheaply produced hydrogen outside of the HHO scams.
This is because you cannot be bothered to look up and actually read a patent. Laugh, and then you try to throw a dictionary in my face. Again, read what I wrote carefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
No, its sad that you don't have a dictionary to look up what a catalyst actually does.

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