My WVO diesel school project - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

colincoon · #46 06-23-2008, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jross

My $0.02:

Get a good 300TD. Get the greasecar kit - too many potential problems can come up with the homebrew, and you want this to be as reliable as possible. Oh, and don't cheap out - make sure you run metal fuel lines. You want no more than 12" of rubber line total if you can avoid it.

I was sort of wondering about this, and possibly change all of my fuel lines to steel braided. My 190E sat for 14 ish years and the fuel lines were shot, I leaked fuel everywhere and didn't know it!

Quote:

Consider swapping in a manual transmission (lower drivetrain losses) and consider upgrading the differential to a lower ratio (I believe the 300TD has the 2.88 gearing, so grab the diff from a gas V8 of equivalent age. I know swapping my 240D diff for a 380SEL unit took me from a gearing of 3.69 to 2.47, and it has paid off hugely). Use a big supplemental tank, like from a diesel pickup (maybe something with a 100 gallon capacity?). If you get one with the toolbox top, you can even (carefully) make a slick capture and filtration setup integrated into your fuel tank. A sufficiently large tank should enable you to increase your range and (hopefully) bypass alot of the mucky-mucky of refueling your car every little bit.

This is something I would consider if I was making this car my DD or something, but for the project I just won't have the time or extra money to really do this. I'm planning on keeping the car after the journey, so maybe this will be a future project, but I'm just going to leave it the way it comes.

As for the tank, I really think I should experiment with the tank I recieve in whichever kit I buy before I really modify anything else. I think 15 gallons (or 18 apparently in the main) will be fine for me, especially if I carry some cubies with me in the trunk. Maybe in the future after this project I'll install a bigger tank, but for now I'm just going to not get ahead of myself and leave it how it is.

Quote:

Before everyone yells at me for telling you to overload your car, you should look at what the cargo capacity is! (And bear it in mind in designing your system!) When figuring what your tank size should be, remember that WVO is around 7.2-7.5 lbs/gallon, and don't forget to account for what your tank and gear will weigh. My car fully fueled carries about 35 gallons, and I've gone on trips with both tanks full, 3 adults and our gear, no problems.

Right, thats why I was a little hesitant about getting a smaller diesel like the 190D. I will probably be carrying a decent amount of stuff in the trunk, so having a wagon would be the best choice for that. I don't need to bog down a 190D and be cramped the whole time!

Quote:

One last point: you should be able to bolt up the 4-speed from a 240D without issue. That said, with the taller differential and a fully loaded car, starting on hills is 'fun'. You may want to investigate the possibility of the 5-speed manual found in the 190D 3.0L cars from the late 80's and early 90's. I have reason to believe these have the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Also remember that if you change your differential, your speedometer will lie!

Best of luck to you!

I'm sure its an easy install, but I just don't have the tools and space to really tear into a transmission especially considering I haven't done something like that before. Maybe in the future like I said, but for now I really would rather not get involved with anything that doesn't need fixing. Oh, and the largest 190D motor was a 2.5 Turbodiesel. Thank you for your input though, I'll definitely consider doing a manual swap in the future, but for now I'm just going to focus on getting it running well on WVO first.

Thanks again guys.

LUVMBDiesels · #47 06-23-2008, 12:31 PM

Maybe instead of doing all this work for WVO, which face it only a few hard core people are ever going to use, plus all the legal aspects of getting oil and burning it on the road, why not use your trip as a wat to promote commercial BioD? You know make the circuit on Bio that you can buy at the pump to sho how easy it is to

a) find it
b) use it -- no modifications needed, etc.
c) You can also do emissions tests of D2 (Dino oil)when you get the car Vs B100 and publish the results.
d)I would also do things like oil analysis to see if running B100 keeps the engine cleaner and causes less wear.

This way you can spend time on the project and not run around trying to find decent oil.

Meplat · #48 06-23-2008, 01:06 PM

Exactly!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

about naturally settling..

I had a 1 gallon sample from a restaurant that had some bits of burnt fries and stuff in it as well as sold fats. After a month stuff was still settling to the bottom. (I would drain as much of the good stuff off the top and then let that settle and so on and so on)

That's the way to do it. I have a dregs barrel. Keep dumping the dregs into it and even get 10 to 15 gallons of good stuff out of it a couple times a year.

Meplat · #49 06-23-2008, 01:18 PM

How about placing a pad heater under the bottom to raise the temperature so it takes less time to settle through the viscous oil?[/quote]

We are not talking about just chunks here we are talking about particles down to 5 microns. Apply heat to the bottom of your container and the warm oil rises, the cold oil falls, the particals stay stired up forever. There is a place for pad heaters, drum heaters, etc. in WVO but not for settling.

Meplat · #50 06-23-2008, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

Its the injection pump you need to worry about, not the injectors.

Finally, something usful.

BTW. it's the injectors too.

colincoon · #51 06-23-2008, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels

Maybe instead of doing all this work for WVO, which face it only a few hard core people are ever going to use, plus all the legal aspects of getting oil and burning it on the road, why not use your trip as a wat to promote commercial BioD? You know make the circuit on Bio that you can buy at the pump to sho how easy it is to

a) find it
b) use it -- no modifications needed, etc.
c) You can also do emissions tests of D2 (Dino oil)when you get the car Vs B100 and publish the results.
d)I would also do things like oil analysis to see if running B100 keeps the engine cleaner and causes less wear.

This way you can spend time on the project and not run around trying to find decent oil.

I thought about using B100, and if I can find it I probably will in my diesel tank, but both my school and me want to see some sort of "involvement" of "making" the fuel. In WVO case, filtering and settling, and if Biodiesel was used then I would have to actually make the biodiesel. Just for this project I'm going to stick with WVO because of that. If I find biodiesel on the road, sure I'll dump some into my tank, but I'll still be running WVO. Hell I'll even use it for backup if I can't find WVO anywhere but I can B100!

Its a great idea though, thank you for suggesting it! I figure that after my trip I'll start experimenting with making biodiesel, but thats not my focus right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meplat

How about placing a pad heater under the bottom to raise the temperature so it takes less time to settle through the viscous oil?

We are not talking about just chunks here we are talking about particles down to 5 microns. Apply heat to the bottom of your container and the warm oil rises, the cold oil falls, the particals stay stired up forever. There is a place for pad heaters, drum heaters, etc. in WVO but not for settling.

So say I can't let the oil settle, I can still use filtering to get out the crappy stuff to a point, but I would be going through filters, right? In some destinations, where I'm staying with friends and family, I will have a few days to let oil settle which I will do since you brought it up. But for the times where I'm on the road and need WVO, I can still use a filtered pump, correct? Thats what it sounds like I'm going to have to do, so hopefully it won't ruin my engine. I guess I'll try and stockpile as much settled oil as I can when I get the chance to let it settle for a few days.

Thanks again guys.

#52 06-23-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meplat

BTW. it's the injectors too.

Heat it good enough for the pump and it will be good enough for the injectors as well. Testing injector temperature will give false readings, convection from the head coolant and combustion will warm them up quicker than the fuel.

RichC · #53 06-23-2008, 05:53 PM

.

www.fillup4free.com

Hundreds of people across the US willing to share their veggie oil.

This web site is great for hooking up with people that have oil to share
while your on the road.

If your down in Texas you can stop by my house.

I am RichC on the fillup4free forum also.

Have Fun
RichC

.

colincoon · #54 06-23-2008, 07:46 PM

^I joined a few days ago, its a great site! I'll put my name on the map once time comes for wanting oil, then post a topic similar to this one in the forums. Thanks for the offer of oil! Like I said, I won't have my route picked out for another month or so, but really thank you all for the oil offers I've gotten so far!

You guys have been a great help, thanks again.

jross · #55 06-23-2008, 09:49 PM

While I know this is probably going to catch flack... Have you considered just making a series electric hybrid? (And yes, I know, you want to keep it simple... but if you keep your wits about you, the electric conversion really is child's play. )

You could probably talk Curtis (the forklift company) into an A/C controller donation, snag one of the new 'automotive' rated A/C motors, and then talk someone like Generac about a small diesel generator. I believe that route has the following advantages:
1) You would be making a more significant statement than just doing a WVO conversion
2) If you get some of the parts donated it should be cost competitive with just a WVO conversion
3) With the proper sized generator, you should have better fuel economy
4) Using B100 or even regular diesel, your trip will be significantly cleaner (eg, no veggie oil everywhere - and believe it, it does get everywhere) and you will have less hassles in collecting fuel

The fact that you're doing this as a high school project would work heavily in your favor when it comes to the donations: it gives them a PR freebie and a tax write off, both of which they like. That's the real reason for the Ford THINK and GM's GEM 'neighborhood electric vehicles' (NEVs) that you see running around, not any environmental concern (which is why, incidentally, you can't get parts for either without a huge hassle).

I hate to say it, but biofuels are terrible for the environment (especially from the perspective of land use and water use), and you may find funding easier to come by if you're doing an 'electric' project instead of a 'diesel' or 'alternative biofuel' project. The last two are kind of played out from the perspectives of industry and academia. Electric cars and hybrids still have a level of mystique around them, which will work in your favor and enhance your bona-fides if you are using this to help with college applications (or to get the girls!). But the truth is that both electric cars and hybrids (especially series hybrids) are simple and straightforwards. Oh, and alot cleaner!

[Yes, I'm an engineer. Yes, I work on EVs all the time. Yes, I know you're young. Yes, I think you really can do this as simply as installing a WVO kit.]

#56 06-23-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jross

Yes, I think you really can do this as simply as installing a WVO kit.]

Sorry, I had to.

colincoon · #57 06-24-2008, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jross

While I know this is probably going to catch flack... Have you considered just making a series electric hybrid? (And yes, I know, you want to keep it simple... but if you keep your wits about you, the electric conversion really is child's play. )

You could probably talk Curtis (the forklift company) into an A/C controller donation, snag one of the new 'automotive' rated A/C motors, and then talk someone like Generac about a small diesel generator. I believe that route has the following advantages:
1) You would be making a more significant statement than just doing a WVO conversion
2) If you get some of the parts donated it should be cost competitive with just a WVO conversion
3) With the proper sized generator, you should have better fuel economy
4) Using B100 or even regular diesel, your trip will be significantly cleaner (eg, no veggie oil everywhere - and believe it, it does get everywhere) and you will have less hassles in collecting fuel

The fact that you're doing this as a high school project would work heavily in your favor when it comes to the donations: it gives them a PR freebie and a tax write off, both of which they like. That's the real reason for the Ford THINK and GM's GEM 'neighborhood electric vehicles' (NEVs) that you see running around, not any environmental concern (which is why, incidentally, you can't get parts for either without a huge hassle).

I hate to say it, but biofuels are terrible for the environment (especially from the perspective of land use and water use), and you may find funding easier to come by if you're doing an 'electric' project instead of a 'diesel' or 'alternative biofuel' project. The last two are kind of played out from the perspectives of industry and academia. Electric cars and hybrids still have a level of mystique around them, which will work in your favor and enhance your bona-fides if you are using this to help with college applications (or to get the girls!). But the truth is that both electric cars and hybrids (especially series hybrids) are simple and straightforwards. Oh, and alot cleaner!

[Yes, I'm an engineer. Yes, I work on EVs all the time. Yes, I know you're young. Yes, I think you really can do this as simply as installing a WVO kit.]

This is something I've always wondered about, why hasn't someone made a diesel hybrid yet? It would be GREAT if they didn't use batteries with massive amounts of nickle in them like the Prius does, and a lot more efficient.

Sadly though, I don't think that what you suggested would really be possible with my resources, time, and experience. I really don't have a lot of space to work in, enough to install a WVO kit, but not enough to have parts laying around everywhere. If I did, this would be something to consider for the future as I am really interested in a diesel-hybrid vehicle, but I just don't think I can really do it. Thank you for suggesting it though, it's a really interesting concept!

Thanks guys.

Meplat · #58 06-24-2008, 12:58 AM

So say I can't let the oil settle, I can still use filtering to get out the crappy stuff to a point, but I would be going through filters, right?

Right. In this case it would be useful to use a series of filters, mesh strainer, 100 mic, 50 mic, 30 mic, 20, 10, 5, or similer. If you find a place with a large outside container pump only off the very top. You may get lucky and they may not have added oil for a while and you can take advantage of the natural settling that has already happened. If pouring from cubies pour carefuly off the top and leave the bottum stuff.

I can still use a filtered pump, correct?

Sure, just try to feed it the cleanest stuff you can.

hopefully it won't ruin my engine.

It wont ruin your engine. Just be messy, expensive (filters), time consuming, and a general P.I.T.A.

probear · #59 06-24-2008, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

Heat it good enough for the pump and it will be good enough for the injectors as well. Testing injector temperature will give false readings, convection from the head coolant and combustion will warm them up quicker than the fuel.

Pretty true, but once again, an injector line heater with a heated fuel filter eliminates both problems. For the engine, you want the oil to be at least 180F for the proper viscosity, and the injection pump needs to also have the advantage of a lower viscosity. The reason for the heated fuel filter is to make sure the filter itself does not load with wax from the lower temps....

Meplat · #60 06-24-2008, 01:37 AM

Heat it good enough for the pump and it will be good enough for the injectors as well.

But you have a lot of injector tubing hanging out in the breez between the pump and the injector.

Testing injector temperature will give false readings.

Tecno-bable. If you think you know a method of testing actual injector tip temperature in a running engine, you must have access to some really good drugs.

convection from the head coolant and combustion will warm them up quicker than the fuel.

True, but that's not the point. The point is the hotter the fuel at startup in a cold engine the better the injector pattern and the less likely to cause coaking and fouling. Most of the "gumming up" you are always belly acing about happens in the first few revs before combustion heat has a chance to heat the injectors and lines through CONDUCTION not convection. The injector really dose not care how cold it is but burning cold fuel can help plug it up.