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  #31  
Old 05-24-2017, 11:32 AM
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I don't know. Some people claim good life with this sort of setup. One thing people do is use a hotter thermostat to get the desired coolant temp.
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  #32  
Old 01-23-2018, 10:46 AM
Mibble
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hadley, MA
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I have been running the same 240d from 140,000 to 230,000 miles, most of that on veggie oil. When I first got the car, I would mix my filtered oil in the original fuel tank (summer only). After a few years of tinkering I run two tank and still going very strong. Good compression, starts right up in winter.

I have good things to say about the plant drive products particularly the heated VM2 coolant heated filter. I use their vegtherm 12v inline fuel heater mounted on the injection rails as the last thing before the fuel goes to the IP (with proper fuel injection line).

I use a Arctic fox brand hot fox in-tank coolant heated pickup which is mounted along the bottom of my 14 gallon aluminum boat tank.

My most important recommendation is to NOT follow the fuel routing for greasecar, plant drive and some other plans. They use two valves (One to select which tank and filter for the lift pump to PULL from, and the other to select which tank to return to.)

I and a lot of other people use THREE 3 port valves, one before and one after the lift pump and one for fuel return. Valve 1 chooses which tank (and pre filter) for the the lift pump to PULL through. Valve 2 chooses which filter the lift pump will PUSH through. Valve 3 picks which tank to return to. If you route it this way, you won't end up sucking up air when the lift pump tries to pull thick oil through the main VO filter. Pushing, not pulling is the way mercedes designed their lift pump to work. In fact, do all pumps work better pushing through a filter than pulling? I know the stock 616 lift pump does! I've never sucked air after changing to this set up.

If you want to save money and space on valves, you can use a 6 port plastic pollak valve to route fuel before and after the lift pump

Other recomendations: Purge your engine of VO before shutting down! Ream your glow plugs holes when you change them. Do a diesel purge every year. Consider rebuilding with monarch injector tips if they ever start clicking a lot or clogging. I clogged an injector after 5 years of wvo. On a 240d miles from home and down an injector, is a rough ride! This is why you purge!

Last edited by hanky6000; 01-23-2018 at 10:59 AM.
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  #33  
Old 01-23-2018, 11:08 AM
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Our cars have Diesel engines. That means they were designed to run on Diesel fuel. It is true that the OM616/617 can RUN on anything vaguely combustible, probably even peanut butter. There are even people out there running their cars on waste lube oil. It is not true however that they will run as good or better. It also means that the maintenance problems will be a magnitude greater.

You say this is your daily driver. I believe it as my '83 is mine. I would never experiment with my car especially knowing the potential problems. It will take quite a while to achieve "cheap" fuel after initial cost and increased maintenance. Why do you want to do this? Is it a hobby? To have cocktail party conversation? It certainly can't be good for your car.
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  #34  
Old 01-23-2018, 12:42 PM
Mibble
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hadley, MA
Posts: 6
Why its worth it for me

I agree that these engines were designed for diesel. As someone said earlier, its a calculated risk. I've never seen my cars pre chambers or cylinders but I have seen the carbon that comes out of the glow plug holes after years of veggie oil! My gut feeling is my 616 just shouldn't see veggie oil until it is at full op temp in order to burn as cleanly as possible.

The thing that makes WVO worth it to me is saving money on fuel. I pick up vegetarian frying oil from two restaurants for free and filter that oil to 5 microns in my shed. I use this to get to work which is 20 miles each way. I also go on tons of regional and long distance trips on veggie oil. My guess is I've had about 60,000 miles worth of wvo run through my car.

In terms of investment and cost, this all came from a 8th grade research project I did and I said the first car I get will run on grease! I was naive but got into it and into filtering oil pretty well by the time I got the car at 16. I'm almost 28 now so I can't go back and say "was it worth it?" But I have the simple chores it takes to keep it going as part of my life. For better or worse lol.

My 83 240d auto is my first car and just keeps going. I treat it like a farm truck and in my teenage years, I was bad about maintenance. It's had some accidents and and the paint is kind of patchwork. It's also arguably the least desirable model being pretty slow (its fine for me except in the rocky mountains). Everything that has gone wrong I've learned lessons on how to prevent wvo related problems in the future (Injector clogging, glow plug failure, leaks etc..).

In the process of owning this car for so long, I've gotten good at wrenching and do 90% of work myself. Next week however (because i'm lazy and don't have a compressor) i'm going to pay a garage install some brand new heavier 300d turbo rear springs so I can hall more veggie oil and my canoe for a planned trip to the everglades!

This picture is from a sea kayaking/wvo trip to maine a 3 years ago. I've done a lot of welding since then! P.S. This should be obvious but don't ever tie a boat on your car like I did here. I ruined part of my door seals from this!
Attached Thumbnails
Two Tank setup-240d-kayaks.jpg  

Last edited by hanky6000; 01-23-2018 at 01:47 PM.
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  #35  
Old 01-23-2018, 04:14 PM
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Excellent response. I now understand and am embarassed that I questioned you.
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  #36  
Old 01-23-2018, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanky6000 View Post
I agree that these engines were designed for diesel. As someone said earlier, its a calculated risk. I've never seen my cars pre chambers or cylinders but I have seen the carbon that comes out of the glow plug holes after years of veggie oil! My gut feeling is my 616 just shouldn't see veggie oil until it is at full op temp in order to burn as cleanly as possible.

The thing that makes WVO worth it to me is saving money on fuel. I pick up vegetarian frying oil from two restaurants for free and filter that oil to 5 microns in my shed. I use this to get to work which is 20 miles each way. I also go on tons of regional and long distance trips on veggie oil. My guess is I've had about 60,000 miles worth of wvo run through my car.

In terms of investment and cost, this all came from a 8th grade research project I did and I said the first car I get will run on grease! I was naive but got into it and into filtering oil pretty well by the time I got the car at 16. I'm almost 28 now so I can't go back and say "was it worth it?" But I have the simple chores it takes to keep it going as part of my life. For better or worse lol.

My 83 240d auto is my first car and just keeps going. I treat it like a farm truck and in my teenage years, I was bad about maintenance. It's had some accidents and and the paint is kind of patchwork. It's also arguably the least desirable model being pretty slow (its fine for me except in the rocky mountains). Everything that has gone wrong I've learned lessons on how to prevent wvo related problems in the future (Injector clogging, glow plug failure, leaks etc..).

In the process of owning this car for so long, I've gotten good at wrenching and do 90% of work myself. Next week however (because i'm lazy and don't have a compressor) i'm going to pay a garage install some brand new heavier 300d turbo rear springs so I can hall more veggie oil and my canoe for a planned trip to the everglades!

This picture is from a sea kayaking/wvo trip to maine a 3 years ago. I've done a lot of welding since then! P.S. This should be obvious but don't ever tie a boat on your car like I did here. I ruined part of my door seals from this!
Vegetable oils are highly unsaturated and will undoubtedly polymerize over time. That being said, many of the failures I have observed over the years are, at least partially, self-inflicted. First, I have lost count of the number of W123's and W124's I have encountered with no thermostat. These engines are designed to operate at a specific temperature yet, I guess some reason, the colder the better. Second, glow plugs at startup help the fuel burn cleaner and more completely. This is particularly true of vegetable oil. How many of these cars are operated with one or more glow plugs out? Those cylinders will not burn properly on startup. On the subject of glow plugs, there are several method of providing for "afterglow" or keeping glow plugs on for a short time after startup until the engine is up to temperature. This will allow time for rings to properly seat and reduce engine oil dilution. Third, changing the engine oil much more frequently, perhaps every 3000 miles maximum. Prior to changing, do an engine oil flush with something like Motor Medic MDF1 which is specifically designed for turbo diesels. With every oil change, also change the fuel filters and fill the new filter with Diesel Purge to clean the injectors. Fourth, don't heat the tank and don't allow the return line to heat the tank on long trips. Loop the return with a three way valve with one direction being "loop" and the other return to tank but use only to flush any air out of the lines. Polymerization rates double with every 10 deg C and keep in mind, almost all polymerization starts in the tank from the constant fill/drain cycles sweeping the walls of the tank.(polymerization is a thin film phenomenon, oil against reactive metal exposed to oxygen) So the colder the better if you don't need heat to keep the fuel flowing. When summer comes, shut off the heat.
It is possible to successfully operate vegetable oil in these old diesels for well over 100K miles, but it's not easy and does require constant attention.

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  #37  
Old 01-24-2018, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzpdlr View Post
Vegetable oils are highly unsaturated and will undoubtedly polymerize over time. That being said, many of the failures I have observed over the years are, at least partially, self-inflicted. First, I have lost count of the number of W123's and W124's I have encountered with no thermostat. These engines are designed to operate at a specific temperature yet, I guess some reason, the colder the better. Second, glow plugs at startup help the fuel burn cleaner and more completely. This is particularly true of vegetable oil. How many of these cars are operated with one or more glow plugs out? Those cylinders will not burn properly on startup. On the subject of glow plugs, there are several method of providing for "afterglow" or keeping glow plugs on for a short time after startup until the engine is up to temperature. This will allow time for rings to properly seat and reduce engine oil dilution. Third, changing the engine oil much more frequently, perhaps every 3000 miles maximum. Prior to changing, do an engine oil flush with something like Motor Medic MDF1 which is specifically designed for turbo diesels. With every oil change, also change the fuel filters and fill the new filter with Diesel Purge to clean the injectors. Fourth, don't heat the tank and don't allow the return line to heat the tank on long trips. Loop the return with a three way valve with one direction being "loop" and the other return to tank but use only to flush any air out of the lines. Polymerization rates double with every 10 deg C and keep in mind, almost all polymerization starts in the tank from the constant fill/drain cycles sweeping the walls of the tank.(polymerization is a thin film phenomenon, oil against reactive metal exposed to oxygen) So the colder the better if you don't need heat to keep the fuel flowing. When summer comes, shut off the heat.
It is possible to successfully operate vegetable oil in these old diesels for well over 100K miles, but it's not easy and does require constant attention.


That single paragraph was more informative that most of the 'DEMON POLY' threads on frybrid.com combined.
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82 Benz 240 D, Kuan Yin
12 Ford Escape 4wd

You're four times
It's hard to
more likely to
concentrate on
have an accident
two things
when you're on
at the same time.
a cell phone.


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  #38  
Old 01-24-2018, 11:20 AM
JB3 JB3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzpdlr View Post
Vegetable oils are highly unsaturated and will undoubtedly polymerize over time. That being said, many of the failures I have observed over the years are, at least partially, self-inflicted. First, I have lost count of the number of W123's and W124's I have encountered with no thermostat. These engines are designed to operate at a specific temperature yet, I guess some reason, the colder the better. Second, glow plugs at startup help the fuel burn cleaner and more completely. This is particularly true of vegetable oil. How many of these cars are operated with one or more glow plugs out? Those cylinders will not burn properly on startup. On the subject of glow plugs, there are several method of providing for "afterglow" or keeping glow plugs on for a short time after startup until the engine is up to temperature. This will allow time for rings to properly seat and reduce engine oil dilution. Third, changing the engine oil much more frequently, perhaps every 3000 miles maximum. Prior to changing, do an engine oil flush with something like Motor Medic MDF1 which is specifically designed for turbo diesels. With every oil change, also change the fuel filters and fill the new filter with Diesel Purge to clean the injectors. Fourth, don't heat the tank and don't allow the return line to heat the tank on long trips. Loop the return with a three way valve with one direction being "loop" and the other return to tank but use only to flush any air out of the lines. Polymerization rates double with every 10 deg C and keep in mind, almost all polymerization starts in the tank from the constant fill/drain cycles sweeping the walls of the tank.(polymerization is a thin film phenomenon, oil against reactive metal exposed to oxygen) So the colder the better if you don't need heat to keep the fuel flowing. When summer comes, shut off the heat.
It is possible to successfully operate vegetable oil in these old diesels for well over 100K miles, but it's not easy and does require constant attention.

or just put in a second plastic tank, and run it hot.

Never had much in the way of polymerization issues in 40k on vo with a 3 tank arrangement I installed in my 300D. 2 plastic VO tanks.
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  #39  
Old 01-25-2018, 05:09 PM
Mibble
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hadley, MA
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Great info here. Its helpful to read this just to remind me why its important to maintain good habits while greasing.

I was just curious of everyone's opinion on the placement of components in there om61x mercedes diesels. Has anyone else had problems running your main veggie oil filter on the vacuum side of the lift pump like the greasecar design instructs?
In my first post I tried to describe my system using a third valve so the filter can be on the pressure side. This is the only way I have been able to run WVO in my 240d without a designated 12v wvo lift pump.

Any thoughts? I'll try to dig up some diagrams.

Also JB3, that 3 tank design sounds interesting! What is the additional advantage of a third tank. My trunk is dedicated to hauling oil so it might make sense for me to do something like that.

The first diagram is greasecar's 2 tank mercedes kit. The second diagram is the sun wizard 2 tank routing that i used.
Attached Thumbnails
Two Tank setup-10_1810449_332006110756pm-1-.jpg   Two Tank setup-my_wvo.jpg  

Last edited by hanky6000; 01-25-2018 at 05:21 PM.
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  #40  
Old 01-25-2018, 05:40 PM
JB3 JB3 is offline
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Originally Posted by hanky6000 View Post
Also JB3, that 3 tank design sounds interesting! What is the additional advantage of a third tank. My trunk is dedicated to hauling oil so it might make sense for me to do something like that.

I had a 10 gallon plastic tank the car was plumbed to, and another 20 gallon plastic tank with a transfer pump and a Racor 1000FH at 10 micron connected to it.

Both tanks were heated using stainless fuel pickups, I recall hot fox's. It was a mix of GFS and some other items from other systems. I had a timed switch on the dash to pump vo from the 20 gallon tank through the first filter into the 10 gallon tank. There was an overflow line so you could actually cycle the oil back and forth if needed, the 10 gallon tank would just overflow into the 20 gallon and they shared a vent.

Then the car would draw through a 3 micron racor 500FG to run on. Never had any issues drawing through these filters, but they are HUGE compared to what the car needs. also designed for vacuum application. Worked great, only downside was the weight.
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  #41  
Old 07-19-2018, 01:47 PM
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Will you share me a copy to please
Thanks jake
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Originally Posted by Phillytwotank View Post
I have the Greasecar book for Mercedes. I'll be glad to share it with you. It's a dirty grease stained paper copy.
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  #42  
Old 07-19-2018, 05:31 PM
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If you use coolant heat and drive in the winter, consider putting a balancing restriction in the grease side (parrallel flow) or put the grease stuff in series with the heater flow. Either way it's going to interact, but cabin heat is nice.
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You're four times
It's hard to
more likely to
concentrate on
have an accident
two things
when you're on
at the same time.
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