SVO/Biodiesel advantages/disadvantages - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

WD8CDH · #31 03-26-2007, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wagonpilot

Add my datapoint to the mix too! I now have 5,000 miles on my 85 300TD running nothing but used chinese resturant fryer oil !!! I just filter it, then pour it in and go. Just *make sure it's clean*.

WAGONPILOT

And even more important for engine life, de-watered.

But personally, I don't think it is a very good idea to run a single tank system unless you have the very best of oils and the weather is warm. I have run many hundreds of thousands of miles on WVO in various vehicles with 2 tank heated systems.

Old300D · #32 03-26-2007, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nota

figures free or cheap fuel has less power fry oil ect
but heavery oil like used motor oil is less power too?

any one make or use headers or freeflow pipes or mufflers ect
or the same for turbo's
on a gas car the pipes can add power and milage too if done right
on gas turbo's big down pipes and bigger pipes go well with bigger turbo's
along with intercoolers but need more fuel
can an eltric fuel pump push more fuel to and thru the injector pump or is that a bottle neck in the system
do bigger flowing injectors help on over boosted turbo's

A free-flowing exhaust will help spool the turbo, but a diesel has plenty of air - diesels burn LEAN normally. To make more power you must increase fuel, and control temperature. The injection pump is the key, and a stock IP will only make so much power. Higher flowing injectors will not matter when the pump is maxxed out, as all the fuel the IP flows necessarily goes through the injectors as well. A bigger turbo is onlly needed if you already have the ability to flow too much fuel and you need a cooler EGT (get an intercooler) or you have black smoke (not enough air).

csp97 · #33 03-26-2007, 04:26 PM

A comparison of WVO burning vs. biodiesel burning.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/4241011981/p/1

Biodiesel burns a heck of a lot better. Whether or not it matters to the engine, I don't know.

veganxxx · #34 03-26-2007, 08:24 PM

1. My company is applying for a grant to do a project to test emissions of diesel vs. straight vegetable oil in fleet vehicles and generators

2. It is NOT good to use straight veggie oil without mods to the fuel system no matter what climate you are in. Injecting cold oil before the piston seals are closed allows veg to mix in with crankcase oil. Plus there is an optimum temp that matches the viscosity close enough to diesel that it will atomize and not coke the cylinder walls, this is 160F.

3. We make a kit that utilizes a split wall tank to replace the stock tank. You cannot use steel tanks with veggie oil. We make an 18 gallon veg/ 8 gallon diesel aluminum tank that replaces the stock tank and saves all the trunk room.

DeliveryValve · #35 03-26-2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veganxxx

1. My company is applying for a grant to do a project to test emissions of diesel vs. straight vegetable oil in fleet vehicles and generators

2. It is NOT good to use straight veggie oil without mods to the fuel system no matter what climate you are in. Injecting cold oil before the piston seals are closed allows veg to mix in with crankcase oil. Plus there is an optimum temp that matches the viscosity close enough to diesel that it will atomize and not coke the cylinder walls, this is 160F.

3. We make a kit that utilizes a split wall tank to replace the stock tank. You cannot use steel tanks with veggie oil. We make an 18 gallon veg/ 8 gallon diesel aluminum tank that replaces the stock tank and saves all the trunk room.

Who is "WE"? I am interested in more info on this.

Murphy2000 · #36 03-27-2007, 12:03 AM

If you run straight veg oil in your engine, you will damage your engine.

Its very simple.. Internal combustion engines do have a long enough burn time to cook off all that glycerin still left in the oil..

Biodiesel is almost just like regular diesel.. no glycerin and it burns very clean.

These heated veg oil systems are going to damage peoples engines.

Knightrider966 · #37 03-27-2007, 01:23 AM

Biodiesel burns just like regular fossil fuel and No mods are required, just changing to non organic rubber in your fuel lines. Vegetable oil has the reputation of leaving glycerin in your engine which could do damage eventually. biodiesel is available in all 50 states in ASTM6751 BQ-9000 quality. Just go to www.biodiesel.org and find a link to locate a retailer. Biodiesel is cheaper than gasoline or diesel fuel here in Phoenix.

Cephallus · #38 03-27-2007, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knightrider966

Biodiesel burns just like regular fossil fuel and No mods are required, just changing to non organic rubber in your fuel lines. Vegetable oil has the reputation of leaving glycerin in your engine which could do damage eventually. biodiesel is available in all 50 states in ASTM6751 BQ-9000 quality. Just go to www.biodiesel.org and find a link to locate a retailer. Biodiesel is cheaper than gasoline or diesel fuel here in Phoenix.

You're lucky. The nearest station with bio for me is a 45 minute drive, and they're only open during the day. And it's slightly more expensive than our local crap diesel.

aklim · #39 03-27-2007, 12:10 PM

Over here, they sell B100. However, D2 is $2.76 and they want me to pay $2.95 AFTER I pay them a membership fee of $150 a year or $3.30 if I just walk in.

The Cenex nearby sells B5 but at $2.83

If Old300D is correct that it is 10-15% less power than D2, I'd expect it to be at least that much cheaper since I am going to pay more to use their stuff. If they were cheaper than D2, I'd buy it.

spark3542 · #40 03-27-2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy2000

If you run straight veg oil in your engine, you will damage your engine.

Its very simple.. Internal combustion engines do have a long enough burn time to cook off all that glycerin still left in the oil..

Biodiesel is almost just like regular diesel.. no glycerin and it burns very clean.

These heated veg oil systems are going to damage peoples engines.

And smoking cigarettes will kill you.

It's all about cost/benefit analysis. I seriously question a statement like "damage peoples engines"...that's too vague...it seizes up to the point where it's not rebuildable? Destroys piston rings thus creating blowby and low compression? Scores the cylinder walls, requiring an overbore or sleeving situation? Destroys seals in the IP, requiring rebuild or replacement of the IP?

I'll take worst case...that I need to pull the whole engine and replace it...I estimate maybe $2000 on the high end for me to do that (I replaced a 2002 Kia motor for $400, so I have experience is this area).

Now, the math. Running WVO/RUG, I pay about $.01 per mile for fuel. Someone running diesel pays about $.10. It will take me about 25,000 miles to pay for a replacment motor, worst case. Will I "damage" my engine in 25,000 miles? I've put over 13,000 on the last six months without issue.

And, so far, there is 500 gallons of petroleum that I didn't import from the Middle east.

I reduced the cost of waste disposal for 7 restaurants in my area.

The cost/benefit analysis is overwhelming in my opinion.

(I don't smoke, by the way).

aklim · #41 03-27-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spark3542

And smoking cigarettes will kill you.

It's all about cost/benefit analysis. I seriously question a statement like "damage peoples engines"...that's too vague...it seizes up to the point where it's not rebuildable? Destroys piston rings thus creating blowby and low compression? Scores the cylinder walls, requiring an overbore or sleeving situation? Destroys seals in the IP, requiring rebuild or replacement of the IP?

I'll take worst case...that I need to pull the whole engine and replace it...I estimate maybe $2000 on the high end for me to do that (I replaced a 2002 Kia motor for $400, so I have experience is this area).

Now, the math. Running WVO/RUG, I pay about $.01 per mile for fuel. Someone running diesel pays about $.10. It will take me about 25,000 miles to pay for a replacment motor, worst case. Will I "damage" my engine in 25,000 miles? I've put over 13,000 on the last six months without issue.

And, so far, there is 500 gallons of petroleum that I didn't import from the Middle east.

I reduced the cost of waste disposal for 7 restaurants in my area.

The cost/benefit analysis is overwhelming in my opinion.

Increases your chances of getting something like cancer. Won't kill you like say a gunshot to the brain or cyanide.

I thought it is responsible for coking the injectors, rings and damaging the IP because of it's viscosity?

MB engines go for 2K?

You do realize that you have, in both cases, omitted labor times. That would be akin to me saying my car has no fuel costs because I take it off Dad's fuel pump. If you compare apples to apples, what would it cost? IOW, take into consideration that you are setting up a shop and selling the fuel. I don't know why homebrew Bio and SVO people always omit all the other things that add up to the true cost of the product. When I calculate how much a car costs me, I add up everything. I don't count the service I do as parts only. I tack in down as tho I went to a dealership for the work. At the end of the day, I have true cost. After all, my time is money. I don't work for free.

Like they even miss that. Besides, how much of that 500 gals actually comes from the ME? Maybe less than 20%.

Maybe for now it would. When biodiesel plants start springing up and pay to take the stuff, you might not be right then. Assuming that they don't pay a flat fee for certain amounts.

Only because you don't plug in true cost. When you figure out taxes, space, equipment, time, storage, etc, etc, your cost analysis will change. I rotate my tires every so often. If I were tracking the cost of the vehicle, I track it as tho I got it done at some shop. That way I know how much that vehicle actually costs. I don't just say that because I have a jack and some stands, tire rotation is free. My equipment which breaks from time to time isn't free and neither is my time.

I don't know about where you live but I don't want to wire up a 2 tank system and have to remember to switch it to SVO after the fuel is warm and shut it off before I park. Another hassle. I don't think I can run a 1 tank system either. Now, if commercial grade biodiesel were cheaper than D2, I'd be getting it. So far, it hasn't. Place that sells B100 is content to keep it higher than D2 because they don't need the extra business it would generate. In their words "If we feel we need more sales, we will drop the price.". This was when I asked them why they were 70 cents higher even after paying for the membership fee annually.

Cephallus · #42 03-27-2007, 02:15 PM

There are too many variables, and too many perspectives to this discussion to be able to all agree on whether or not any specific individual should run vegetable oil in his/her 25yo diesel.

Personally, I have not pursued using alternative fuels because of the cost-saving benefit - I have pursued it because of both the environmental and the political benefits. The Middle East isn't the only place oil is ruining people's lives - check out the situation in Nigeria right now. I personally feel that it's irresponsible, as a human being, to facilitate the exploitation of millions of people in the name of driving an inefficient luxury automobile in the course of my daily life. When my wife was driving a Ford Explorer to work every day, we were consuming 6 to 8 gallons of gasoline per day. Now we use *maybe* 6 to 8 gallons of gasoline per week. And we're working to reduce that to 0. But I'm going to be the last guy to tell anyone else what they should put in his/her own car, no matter how strongly I feel about it myself.

I fully expect that running SVO when SoCal weather is hot (on a single tank system, no less!) and bio when chilly is going to result in additional maintenance that I would probably not require on dino. I'm not doing this to save my car from needing an engine rebuild...I'm doing this to contribute what I can to making all of our lives better. Hey, if my mitigating risk by using injector line heaters, an inline heater, and a heated filter results in my engine being happier for a longer amount of time, then I'll be thrilled.

Until we can learn to agree to disagree on this, it's going to be a sore point of contention. Not everyone has the same 'purists' view of classic MB diesels that some have, as hard as that may be to accept. Some actually view them as transportation devices, and have priorities that supercede treating the engine and injection system like holy relics.

spark3542 · #43 03-27-2007, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Increases your chances of getting something like cancer. Won't kill you like say a gunshot to the brain or cyanide.

I thought it is responsible for coking the injectors, rings and damaging the IP because of it's viscosity?

MB engines go for 2K?

You do realize that you have, in both cases, omitted labor times. That would be akin to me saying my car has no fuel costs because I take it off Dad's fuel pump. If you compare apples to apples, what would it cost? IOW, take into consideration that you are setting up a shop and selling the fuel. I don't know why homebrew Bio and SVO people always omit all the other things that add up to the true cost of the product. When I calculate how much a car costs me, I add up everything. I don't count the service I do as parts only. I tack in down as tho I went to a dealership for the work. At the end of the day, I have true cost. After all, my time is money. I don't work for free.

Like they even miss that. Besides, how much of that 500 gals actually comes from the ME? Maybe less than 20%.

Maybe for now it would. When biodiesel plants start springing up and pay to take the stuff, you might not be right then. Assuming that they don't pay a flat fee for certain amounts.

Only because you don't plug in true cost. When you figure out taxes, space, equipment, time, storage, etc, etc, your cost analysis will change. I rotate my tires every so often. If I were tracking the cost of the vehicle, I track it as tho I got it done at some shop. That way I know how much that vehicle actually costs. I don't just say that because I have a jack and some stands, tire rotation is free. My equipment which breaks from time to time isn't free and neither is my time.

I don't know about where you live but I don't want to wire up a 2 tank system and have to remember to switch it to SVO after the fuel is warm and shut it off before I park. Another hassle. I don't think I can run a 1 tank system either. Now, if commercial grade biodiesel were cheaper than D2, I'd be getting it. So far, it hasn't. Place that sells B100 is content to keep it higher than D2 because they don't need the extra business it would generate. In their words "If we feel we need more sales, we will drop the price.". This was when I asked them why they were 70 cents higher even after paying for the membership fee annually.

You're missing it. $2k includes labor.

I spend about 45 minutes per week preparing my fuel, all told. Collecting, filtering, mixing, pouring in tank. No mods to my MB at all.

We need to get off foreign oil dependency. Middle East was just an example. I want to get away from importing from Venezuela just as much.

To play devil's advocate, if I asked you why you run a stroker, what is your answer? Chevy designed the 350 to be 350. A larger crank and shorter connecting rods will cause undue wear on your engine. You're damaging your engine by running it that way. You're going to respond that the benefits outweigh the costs, correct?

It's all about cost/benefit analysis.

rrgrassi · #44 03-27-2007, 04:54 PM

A full race 350 is different than an assembly line 350. So modifying an assembly line engine can increase the wearing of the block. A specially built engine has been hardened where it needs to be. It is a cost vs. benefits, etc.

I run Bio D because I can buy it cheaper than pump diesel. I do not like being held hostage at the pump either. I do not make Bio becuase I do not have a good supply of oil, nor can I afford to buy the reactor and the methanol.

I would like to know where you can get a MB engine for $2000. The lowest price I found was $3300 for a long block w/IP at AutoZone. 3 yr/36,000 mile warranty. No idea who the supplier is. KIA means Killed In Action, so it is a disposable car anyway.