4" in the dash of W126?

[Hit Man X]

Has anyone not installed 4x6s in the dash of a W126?

I can't seem to find any high quality (just so-so/entry level versions of Rainbow, MB Quart, etc) speakers and I have came upon a plethora of 4" that may fit and be voice matched to 6.5" rears (when I swap rear decks, also to gain the extra brake light).

Comments/Ideas?

[96C220]

I put a 4" pioneer in my old 89 w126. I wasnt looking to go as high end as the brands that you are mentioning, but it worked fine, much better than 10 year old eroded MB speakers. You had to cut two of the 4 mounting tabs off the 4", and use one of the original mounting holes, and then trim the underdash a bit, and use one of those clips that comes with the speakers to slide over the edge to hold down the 2nd screw.

One thing to watch though is if you get a coaxial, watch the tweeter protrusion. If the tweeter protrudes alot, you wont be able to get the factory speaker cover back on flat.

Take care,

George

[Hit Man X]

Looks like the height from the bottom of the magnet to the top of the speaker is 1-7/8" for the stock crap. I need to measure to see how much distance there is between the bottom of the front grill and the top of the speaker.

Just need to think about woofer excursion but lil 4" speakers shouldn't move much crossed over at 125Hz anyway.

[96C220]

Yeah cone xmax is NOT a problem, as the basket has a lip basically designed to protect the cone from hitting anything anyway. The only problem you will encounter is the tweeter protrusion.

Btw do you have an older w126 that doesnt have the 6.5 in the door?

You mention crossing over at 125hz, which for a 4" driver is a bad idea. At least do 300hz, with a 6db roll off, cause that little 4" cone cant really handle much below it. This is easily accomplished by wiring a 100mfd non polarized electrolytic cap in line with the positive speaker lead. I would go with a low leakage 5% cap preferably film, but even a 20% xircon one will work.

Take care,

George

[danwatt]

I put in some Kenwood 4x6's in the fronts. They stink. Even after soldering in some capacitors to filter out everything below 300~ hz, they pale in comparison to the Infinity's I have on the rear shelf. So I'm going to find myself some Infinity 4"s for the dash.

Also, it takes a lot of cutting to get the 4x6's in there. And once you do that, no more warrenty.

[96C220]

4" speakers are never going to compare to larger drivers. Simple physics there, of you have a specific cone surface area and a specific excursion (maximum movement of the cone). That is its ability to move air, in this case for the purpose of reproducing sound. A larger driver can move more air, but requires more energy to move the larger cone (in this case in the form of ac current from the amp). With a 4" you usually dont run out of power, especially with the more modern higher power headunits, you run into the physical limits of the speakers.

To really get the image into the front, you need to add larger drivers in the front. The later 126's had 6.5's in the doors to augment the 4" in the dash. I dont know if the door panels are a straight swap or not, but that may be an idea...

If you are worried about output level, you need to find the most efficient speaker you can find. They are rated in terms of db / 1w / 1 meter (ive seem some car audio manufacturers pull the 1/2 meter trick though). Basically what this is, is a measure of how much sound pressure level the speaker can create when 1 watt of power (usually at a test frequency of 1000 or 1500 hz), measured from a distance of 1 meter. The more efficient the speaker, the more output it is going to have. But you have two choices here, either make the drivers in the front of the car the same or larger than the rear, or, if you want a foward image, and are willing to sacrifice overall volume, fade it forward.

You may also want to consider a 4" component set in the front, With separate tweeter (although mounting depth may prove to be a challenge in the w126 dash), this will give you a strong high end. Then lowpass the rear deck speakers at 2500 hz or so. The lower the frequency, the less directional it is to the human ear. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Take care,

George

[Hit Man X]

Basic capacitors are different than full crossovers. I run 24dB/oct when stuff is crossed with a good subwoofer, 6dB/oct doesn't really help much... you should have at least gone for 12db/oct. I used some Infinity Kappas in another vehicle (4x6 plates in the Z) and far, far too shrill when loud. Not a nice sound to me, due to their metal domed tweeters.

The purpose of a 4" in place of a 4x6 is to have a 4" of higher quality that's voice matched to a 6.5" in the rear parcel shelf. Two different speakers I never liked how it sounded. Also, you typically get higher quality surrounds as well as bigger magnets, external crossovers, and more.

Headunit power is junk, it distorts from 4-7% THD at full power (most real amps like I use are 0.08 or lower)! That's where you hit limits, I have a set of Polk DXs in the F150 with a 150/channel RMS amp (JL 300/2) pounding on those speakers.... they're only rated to 40w RMS, yet that's full range power. Cross them off and add clean power and you're good. They've been pounding like that for around two years. I've yet to blow a driver with good clean power. That being said you won't see mine off the HU once I get two more speakers that will fit the dash. HU power is that lame.

I did look into the 6.5" into the front doors and it appears to be for the OE subwoofer system, I believe it will cause more harm to the sound stage than it will help due to the position. They're not in the bottom of the doors near the feet, but by the elbows. Too much work for not enough outcome.

I'm also not worried about some drivers being down in the 87-89dB at w/m range. I do not use small 30x4 RMS amps, I use at least 75x4 units. So what they lack in efficiency I make up in power. It's rare to see a decent speaker that's efficient for whatever reason.



Perhaps your view on what I'm trying to do I should have explained but all I needed to know is if a 4" will fit in the dash. I know what I'm doing, I've built more than one mobile stereo setup and dialed it in pretty well.

[96C220]

Ok now that we are on a different level, lets talk. My previous comments were directed more towards a basic or "amateur" setup. Most people arent that into audio, especially in a car.

24db / octave is too steep for anything but a sub. Dont forget the listed xover frequency is the 50% power point, you are also attenuating frequencies higher than that, with that steep a slope the cutoff is going to sound unnatural. Especially with multiple drivers mounted off axis from each other. I agree with the 12-18db an octave slope. I also wouldn't use head unit power. I run 220w RMS per channel to my front stage with the gain at 1/8. Its all about headroom. My sub theoretically gets 1100 watts. Do I ever use it? No.

Have you considered thinking outside the box? Using a driver not really intended for car audio. There arent many car speakers of decent quality in that size. I run a Focal / Audax setup, with handbuilt crossovers. I selected from their raw driver line and pieced together my setup. I hate metal dome tweeters as well, they are really only a slight step above piezo tweeters. I have a w202 so I have a more flexible tweeter mount provision. I'm running a set of audax ribbon tweeters in the dash, and a 6.5" focal kevlar midbass. For now its running on a linkwitz reiley based 12db an octave crossover setup. I was planning to biamp the system, and use electronic crossovers all around, but honestly im happy with it. The only caveat here is that most drivers are 8 ohm, if you have sufficient power, this isnt a problem, but the higher impedance cuts the amplifiers current (and output power) in half, as well as the distortion though

The 6.5 in the door will help, as long as its crossed over low, it fires almost directly into the seat bolster, so its hard to localize it. Say 1000hz for that, 1000hz - 3.5k or so for the mid, and the tweeter handling anything about that. The other option is custom kick panels.

[Hit Man X]

I'm not a fan of kickpanels, experimented with those in the Z. Could have done the same sound stage modification with the Time Correction... but then I purchased them my HU at the time didn't support it. Live and learn. The lack of footwell space is vast. I have three way components there and did also consider the Bi-Amp setup for the headache it's just not worth it as I'm not trying to win a competition, the entire vehicle isn't sound deadened, etc. I only have 75/channel on those and they sound nice. With double that I'd be suprised I'm sure still with the three way x-over.

Yes, 24s I run when I have a single woofer. 12s without. 24s without a woofer doesn't sound proper to me, there's simply no midbass response.

While laughing at headunit amps, some only respond from 45-15000Hz. It's amazing to me when I try to tell people a small solid state amp that's even 30x4 will over power and blow away any headunit and I'm not taken seriously.

My amps aren't fully cranked either on the larger ones, they're maybe 1/3 to 1/2 at the most, I'm after quality not quantity here. I was thinking for some quality 4" for the dash, same with the rear fill, and a single woofer. I'm not expecting much from those 4" speakers minus some fill. I'd have to bandpass I suppose the front door ones to get some response, not really what I had planned would fill the front with a lot better sound too.

[GEORGE EXOO]

This topic is of interest to me, as I have invested perhaps more in audio systems than I have in the actual cars themselves. Each of my cars has a McIntosh 50x4 amplifier, MB Quart speakers, a separate bass woofer and amp (Kicker) and a BBE unit. The last item I think is most crucial in developing clear treble in the front, even with MB Quarts. There are three head units: a Philips DC532, a Becker Monza, and a Sony 620 (Jacky's in Dubai was the source here) with short wave.

Of necessity the front speakers are 4", since the smallest speakers with separate tweeters come only in 4" size with MB Quarts. The tweeter cones are separate. My installer mounted them on top of the facia. The back end of the fascia is raised slightly. No problem. I think the sound dispersion improves.

I also have installed the Sony XM tuner in all three cars. That programming is a joy to listen to, as I have a full schedule of classical music, old time radio, plus the BBC World Service, at my finger tips in clear sound, no matter where I am driving, be it on interstate highways or on country roads here in the rural mountains of southern West Virginia.

[jhodg5ck]

I know they're not very popular here in the states, but Morel makes some very nice 4 inch speakers.
This coming w/e I'm doing an install on my 91 560SEC. Sony mobile ES CDX C90 w/ an XDP4000X crossover. I've picked up a set of Morel Integra Ovation 4" for the front, Hybred Ovations 6.5 componenet and a set of MB Quart Q series 6.5 drivers for the door panels. Plan on driving it w/ JL amps.. haven't decided on a sub yet, but I'll leave room for that in the wiring.

I'll be taking many pictures of the install and I'll post them here when finished

Jonathan

[JamesDean]

I just put in a set of Polk DB420 4x6s into my front dash. It wasnt all that bad of a job. I had to cut 3 sides of the speakers' mounting plate inorder to get it to fix. I also had to cut out some of the dashboard intoder to fit the speaker in. It wasnt a lot of cutting on the dash, but on the speaker there was a nice amount. Tin-snips came in handy. All-in-all took about 40min to do. Best of all, it didnt cost me anything because I already had the 4x6s from my rear deck. I put in a 91' rear deck and OE 6.5 pod speakers. Which sounds prettty good. I am getting a Kenwood amp for the whole system soon.


Kris

[jhodg5ck]

here are some shots of the Morel's mounted... Hope to have the rest of the car finished by the weeks end!
http://jono.mbfans.net/Frontspeakermod.jpg
http://jono.mbfans.net/Frontspeakermod01.jpg
http://jono.mbfans.net/frontspeakerinstall.jpg

Jonathan

[Hit Man X]

Originally Posted by jhodg5ck

here are some shots of the Morel's mounted... Hope to have the rest of the car finished by the weeks end!
http://jono.mbfans.net/Frontspeakermod.jpg
http://jono.mbfans.net/Frontspeakermod01.jpg
http://jono.mbfans.net/frontspeakerinstall.jpg

Jonathan

Ah, a great solution!