Please Help...
 

I originally posted portions of this on a different thread, but would like to get more input...

I need help...I really want to get a W123 coupe, but there are many years and different models to get. I live in South Florida and don't know who to turn to.

I have seen ads for a 1978 280CE w/50K miles for $3200...sold. I saw an ad for a 1983 C (assuming CD) w/50k miles for $3200.

That's a great price for me, but don't know if it's a good deal or not.

I was originally shying away from a diesel (not sure why) but see more diesels for sale than gas. What are the pros and cons of an older MB diesel? For the car I am looking for, is gas better?

Can you help me? Anyone?

"is gas better?"

Your asking that in a diesel forum?:D Diesel's are cheaper to run and last longer. Gas engines are quiter and faster. Although the new CDI's challange this.

Tough to answer...it's hard for someone else to know what you're looking for. Somewhat depends on can you work on cars even a little yourself or do you go to the shop for even an oil change? Economic situation...real job, crummy job, student, family... Got any tools? (Yeah I know P.E.H. it's pose'd to be "do you have" but it's a car/fun forum not a job application.) Sorry I got sidetracked...
Anyway the dsl's are very reliable cars(I know squat about MB gasos) but no matter what 123 you get it'll be 20+ years old and will have at least minor issues. No one sells a great running car in great shape that gets 30 mpgs, paid for etc so it'll need "something". Any used car/truck I buy I expect to and usually do put $500 in right off the bat. Tires, clutch, suspension or something... Did I mention a 20+ year old car gaso or dsl will need something or it wouldn't be getting sold(ok, there are RARE exceptions).
The early 123 dsl's are easy to work on, parts are reasonable and easy to get and if you have a good 123 to start with are very reliable. Again I know zip about the gaso MB's and can't comment.
Give us a bit bit more info about you. If wrenching isn't new to you 123 dls's are easy. If wrenching is a foreign concept the 123 dsl's are a great place to learn. If you don't want to mess with getting greasy at all and go to shop for everything I'd stay away form any 20-25 year old car. Good luck.

I have very little knowledge about working on cars...I do know how to change oil, though (baby steps). I have a good job which supplies a company car. My wife's father is a new car dealer, so she gets a new car every 5000 miles. I have a '94 Toyota Camry to get around on weekends if my wife's working and I have my baby...1985 Ferrari 308...can't fix that either. Basically I want a 2 door Mercedes, older style as I like the classic look. But I need one that is mechanically sound and no rust. I'm not afraid of worn interior as I can always take care of that later. I know that diesel fans want nothing but, I was just wondering about the pros and cons so I can make an informed decision. I see more CDs than CEs around for sale, so if everyone thinks diesels are more reliable than I'll try and get one. I don't much care about quiter and faster...if I want quiter, I'll drive the 4 cyl. Camry. If I want faster, well the choice is obvious. I want a good older MB that won't need much engine work that I can enjoy running around in. On long trips, we'll take the wife's car.

Now that's a little on my situation. I really want an W123 coupe. And if Diesels are truly better, than I'll get one and look forward to being a regular on this site.

Thanks. I look forward to more replies.

are diesel MB's better. Matters how you define better. (ride, comfort, durability????) If it is durability then older diesel MB's kick butt in that catagory. (except the AC and cruise controll part LOL) I havent read anything about gassers with over 500,000 miles on the engine. There are dozen or so MB diesels still on the road with that number. In fact there is a million mile diesel too from what I hear.

and as far as ride and comfort...? Won't diesels be the same as gas?

gilnsammy,
If you're willing to at least tinker a bit a 123 is ok. If it's a 'take it to the shop' thing it could be expensive depending there on if you have a good shop in your area. The MB dealer will rape you...that's is if they don't get all snooty and just refuse to work on that old thing. I too like the CD's but I wouldn't dream of owning one if I had to go to a shop to get it repaired. If you must have one get a pristine one(mechanically and "with records"). CD's are more expensive than the other 123's but if you get a good one to start with it could be a good relationship. If not it could be a serious money pit but your local garage will for sure send you calendars and Christmas cards every year forever...prolly from HI. while he's there vacationing on your money. ;)
So far as the gaso-vs-dsl thing I have no idea but I lean toward the dsls for reliability. Good luck.
PS..it's a good car to learn wrenching on and it's never too late unless you just don't like that sort of thing but if it's not your only car it's sorta fun in a weird perverted sort of way. :)

It's an MB. Ride and comfort are superior to other cars of the era. Maybe little better due to the heavier engine improving down forces on the drive wheels. Do note though that the older MB diesels are not known to accelerate off the line to wonderfully (IE: merging traffic; turbo versions not as bad). They cruise at speed just fine. The 240D is a bit slow in that catagory as well though since it is just a 4 banger.

Well, putting the diesel bias of this group aside, you rarely hear about a gas engine lasting as long as diesel. I'm not too concerned about speed off the line .. I want a good looking MB that will last a long time...so diesel it is..for now.

Now there is a new question...the MB dealer I consulted with advised avoiding a Euro model as parts are hard to come by. Is this accurate, or is it hard for the dealer to get these parts and since they want me to come to them, they want me to get a US version. I have seen some really nice Euro's, but am concerned.

I don't think the euro model is a problem... I think most of the differences are in small cosmetic things... bumpers, lights, etc..
Much better chance of finding a manual shift in the Euro models...

If you can afford to keep that 308 then you don't need to be worrying about the upkeep cost of an old 123....

If you would like unique the the 123 coupe 5 cyl turbo diesel is that to say the least. They will be hard to find because there were very few built, and even fewer imported to the US and that also makes them more expensive.

That said I still say the 123 series 240D 4dr sedan is probably the most reliable car ever built, but with only 67 hp 2.4L 4 cyl engine people often shy away. Also it is one of the world's most recognizable cars and I seldom have a day out in the car that youg people don't smile and wave. Like you said you have a Ferrari 308 for speed thrills, a quite Camery, and wife's always with new car. So what you need is something total different and yet fun to drive. The 240D's, they are slow compaired to your other cars, but you are not looking for fast and quite are you.

The old 240D requires you to drive with more detail and plan you launches, but once you get the hang of it you are always ahead of most traffic in the city. The 240D has a very stiff, but smooth ride and goes around corners as if on rails with no body lean if shocks and springs are in good shape. I am in the edge of the Ozark hills and I use to take my motorcycles and one 'vette running the curves, now days it's the 240D. It is just so pleasent of a drive. Once in a while someone starts dogging my tail untill I run them in to a posted 15 to 30 mph curve, and hear their tires squalling and I have never touched the brakes. :D

However if you have your heart set on a 123 coupe they are out there, and I see a local diesel coupe on occassions. The guy is probably in his mid 70's, so he probably plans on keeping it till he has to go the the nursing home or the other. :eek: He has my name and phone number if he desides to sell, but I'm not holding my breath. He's probably like me, want's to be sitting upright behind the wheel when they bury him. ;) :D

Although I'll probably get incinerated for this, I will tell you that diesels are not better. They are different. They start differently, they sound differently, they have different torque characteristics, and the vehicle that they are in has different acceleration charactersistics.

Since you have already decided on a W123 coupe, then you must go and test drive both a 280CE and a 300CD. You will immediately see the difference between a gasoline engine and a diesel engine. Diesels definitely have the edge on long term durability and fuel economy, however, there are sacrifices to be made and they are not for everybody.

To Leathermang...
 

When you wrote..."If you can afford to keep that 308 then you don't need to be worrying about the upkeep cost of an old 123...." you made quite an assumption. Keeping a 308 running well and affording it are two very distinct issues. My 308 is definitely a labor of love...labor = overtime = less time with the wife = having to hear about not being home enough. Luckily my mechanic accepts credit cards.

If a 123 will be 1/2 as costly as the 308...I won't get one. I would not be able to afford it. With my wife quiting her full time job soon, I have to get all the 308 repairs out of the way NOW.

I want the 123 coupe because I want something different that I can drive anywhere. I am limited as to where I can take the 308...limited by my insurance company and just good sense. The 123 is a classy looking, yet somewhat affordable classic that I can hopefully take on lengthy trips throughout Florida, or just drive it to the golf course. I really enjoy the looks of the 2dr.

I was always told avoid Euros in the Ferrari market simply due to market value (Euros being less)...this maily comes from the Euros being de-tuned to meet US requirement. As far as MB, I was told to avoid Euros and diesels by the local MB Dealer...but there are more diesels and Euros out there than US gas versions.

There is a Euro 4cyl (1983) gas in the Miami area...$3200.00. Seller says "mint" with only 50K miles...1 owner (seller is a used car dealer who bought it from a Dr. ...surprised he did not say little old lady). Seller states he and other mechanics don't know the model since there are no markings on the car...I thought all 123s have the model number on the trunk...are Euros different.

Thanks to all who have and will respond...this information is very valuable to me as I try to enter the MB world.

Ok I guess I owe an apology to either you or the forum...seems I've been talking out of school here. :(
After having to do a search to see what a 308 is(haven't even seen a Ferrari in 30 years) I sorta went...woo! From here on I've gotta agree with leathermag that if you can own one of those you can afford a 123 gaso/dsl/turbine or otherwise no matter who's working, slaving, doing OT, sacrificing, doing the maint etc "and still looking for more cars"...
I'm from a different neighborhood economically...not poor but not rich and poor/rich is relative to which side of the fence you're on but anyway I'm babbling.
If you can afford the 308 regardless of how you do it...it must be a JOY to drive, then why in the world would you want to drive a 123? gas/dsl no matter. They are seriously BORING cars to drive. I like'm cause of their simplicity, reliability, ease of maint and low cost but jeez if I could even pay the insurance on a 308 I'd be rollin and not looking back especially at a car with <100hp.
Good luck guy I gotta bail here...I feel like I'm the caddy giving advice to the country club owner. My humble opinions couldn't get through the gate in your world. I still think if you really want one buy one in good shape to start with but....
This post isn't meant disrespectfully at all but as I mentioned above I'm talking out of school here.

Again, the reason I want a 123 is the classic looks and hopefully inexpensive operation of one. The 308 is a great car, but my insurance ($600/year) limits where I can drive it. Basically I can drive it anywhere, I'm just not allowed to park it! Can take it to shows, the mechanic or on a pleasure drive...that's it. The 308 was purchased as a result of an inheritance, so as far as many of the people in the Ferrari world, I really don't fit. I always tell mechanics that I have no business owning a Ferrari...I'm a civil servant...so don't rape me on repair bills 'cause I won't come back. A 123 for less than $4000 is more up my alley...will fit very well with my '94 Camry.

Anyway, enough of me trying to justify why I have a 308...bottom line is I want a 123 coupe...and I'm cheap! Don't want to spend $$$ fixing a car...that's why I have the Camry...I just want something different and nicer.

it seems to me that parts prices are about the same as my old 97 ford escort"rip"with the eception of rebuiding the motor

if your up to learning how to work on a MB diesel, "and there easer than a gasser'' then price is not that bad.
use this forum. having to have some one else work on it will probely make it cost prohibitive

look for people on this forum that live near you and pm them to see if they will help you look

later
jason

"If you can afford to keep that 308 then you don't need to be worrying about the upkeep cost of an old 123...."

I did not make any assumptions about how you got it....

I am saying that the cost of KEEPING an old 123 .... meaning the same type maintenance having to be done by a shop .... I would think would be something like One Tenth that of a 308.....

And nevermind the difference in having a car that you can afford to just carry liability insurance on... and park it anywhere you want because there are all sorts of parts cars sitting around...

As a teenager I was just SURE I wanted a 275 LM....

Hi.

This might not be an option but its just intended
to be a suggestion.

Sell the 308, depending on year and mileage you
should easily get $20K , then buy a nice
low mileage w123 coupe dies/gas, with full service
history and paper work to back it up.
Should be about $8k-$10K and this still leave you
with $$$$$$ to fix it for the next few years


This would also make your wife happier for sure since you
wouldn't need to" ...labor = overtime = less time with the wife = having to hear about not being home enough".

As said before its only a suggestion.

Louis.

...from a 300 CD owner...
 

I've had a lot of problems with mine, but still have under ten grand in it after four years.

Mine cost $35,000 new in 1983...would be twice that amount new in today's dollars, PLUS you'd have to deal with a lot of electronics going up.

Coupe quirks...slightly shorter wheelbase than sedans, so handles differently...regulators for rear quarter windows NEVER work well...so always leave those windows UP. The front doors are big and heavy, as on the Volvo "Bertone" and other coupes of the era. Any glass or exterior trim part for the coupe will be EXPENSIVE...in contrast to sedan parts, which are plentiful and cheap.

A very comfortable car to drive...eye-catching, the best "investment" you may find in a W123.

Suggested reading: "Illustrated Mercedes-Benz Buyer's Guide" by Frank Barrett, a $20 paperback that has all you need to make an informed decision on a used Mercedes...a recent issue of Mercedes Enthusiast, a UK publication, did a feature on the W123s, with a strong focus on the coupe.

Good luck.

Probably get upwards of $35,000.....

Sell the Ferrari?
 

Clearly you are not a Ferrari owner :) so thanks for the suggestion, but not an option.

The MB is intended as another car, not a replacement...and by the way...given the condition, miles, number of awards won, etc...minimum $40,000 + in the southern states, more in the Northeast.

As far as the wife goes...she will continue to have to cope...otherwise I could find a newer model ;)

That is 'upwards of $35,000'..... .
and could be a lot more if it is THE famous one....
Did you perhaps get it from Robin Masters ?

Hehehehe.... your wife doesn't read this forum does she. ;)

Looks like Magnums...I wish I knew how to post pics, although most MB guys probably don't care.

As for the wife...I hope she doesn't read this.:)

I have been thinking as I look through the Auto Trader...there are alot more nice 4 dr 123s available than coupes...and when asked, my wife said she likes the 4 dr better (she says classier look, more functional for family purposes)...maybe I will consider a 4dr. I have seen some recent ads for 1 owner low miles excellent condition MB 123 diesels and gas....spoke to my uncle who knows a little bit about engines...told me I should only get a diesel...runs forever, just have to keep up with the fuel fitler etc. Said a gas engine with 100k+ miles may need a rebuild, whereas a diesel, if properly maintained, will run for longer than me (I only put about 2500-5000 miles/year on my cars.)

So, any input on the 4dr vs. 2 dr?

The questions that you are asking are all about personal choice.
The four door is more functional but the two door has a sportier look. The gas engine is quieter and has better acceleration. The diesel had more durability and better fuel economy.

It does not make any difference what I say, or your uncle says, or anybody else for that matter. It's a matter of personal choice.

Go out and DRIVE them.

Well said!

Just trying to get some opinions...if it is true that high mileage gases may need a rebuild as apposed to a dsl, I want to avoid the added expense.

Just want a nice classic...that my wife won't give me grief about (thus the possible change to a 4dr)

You HAVE sporty -----the 308---- go for functional and pleasing the wife...

Diesels usually will go for more miles without requiring major engine work. However, that said, the condition of the vehicle that you are considering is far more important. If a gasoline engine was well taken care of and has documented oil changes on a regular basis, and was not driven like a racecar, there is every likelyhood that the engine can go 250K miles without major engine work. On the flip side, there are diesels that need major engine work at 150K miles because they were not very well taken care of.

My own SD needs a head gasket at 180K. 20 year old head gasket finally gave up the ghost. This could be considered major engine work if you had to have a mechanic do it.

I would drive both the diesel and the gasoline versions first. If you find that you prefer one over the other from a driveability standpoint then select the best example that you can afford. The longevity of the diesel should not be your primary consideration.

I think the major advantage of our OLD diesels is the lack of electrical stuff to go wrong... most importantly of course is the ignition...

Now I know why you don't trust a helicopter engine...............................GAS MOTORS WITH SPARK IGNITION!:D

BINGO !!!!

:D :D :D :D :D

Quote:
"If a 123 will be 1/2 as costly as the 308...I won't get one. I would not be able to afford it."

I don't know of ANY production cars more expensive to maintain and repair than Ferraris and Lamborgini's. They are beautiful but beauty is as beauty does in my book.

Some first hand observations from an old mechanic with factory training on Porsche and Ferrari:

Many Ferrari and Fiat parts will interchange. Ferrari parts are
300% higher. We have no dedicated wrecking yards for them.
Ferrari interiors stink for several years before the smell of poorly tanned leather fades.
Those long caster Italian front suspensions won't allow a decent U turn anywhere.
In any city you can find a car jacker willing to screw a gun into your nose so he can steal your expensive sports car.
Knowledgable Ferrari techs are HARD to find.
Inexpensive new parts don't exist.
The Italians are famous for discontinuing parts for cars more than ten years old. Not all parts.... just some.

Mercedes diesel parts are easy to find, reasonably inexpensive, and you can still find parts in a wrecking yard.
Mercedes turn in their own tracks.
No one wants to steal them.
MB diesels are a DIYers dream come true. Easy to repair.
New parts are still fairly cheap and they exist in a competitive market.

I would venture a guess that your Camry has been very reliable and has cost you very little in upkeep.

You found a 1983cd for $3200 asking price????? What exactly do you expect to pay for one?

You may just find that driving a turbo diesel MB is the answer to dependable, safe, and inexpensive (relatively) transportation. It will keep high mileage off your Ferrari and still get you to your destination in comfort.

Quote from "Fish" Salmon, Air Force test pilot:

"A helicopter is a compilation of poorly engineered misfitted parts flying together in loose formation."

:D

Also they don't fly, they just beat the air into submission. :D

Yeh, but they look great! Seriously, though, the 308 is easy to work on, so my mechanic says. And you're right about the 10 year rule...Lots of fun to drive though, and that's what it is all about.

Went to a Porsche/MB mechanic today...he suggested going with gas because dsls are more expensive to repair when needed. I think you suggested the best thing to do...drive them all and pick the one I like. I'll try to go out this weekend and drive gas,dsls,2dr,4dr...no wagons though.

And of course, there's that 'no wings' thing too.

Randy, they have wings.

They are called "rotary wings".

I kid you not.

Do you know what the glide ratio is for those type of wings? Similiar to a rock!!! :eek: :D

For those who care, the MB I purchase will park next to this 308 in my garage (if I messed up posting the pic, none of this will matter).

guess I messed up :(

You need to link the picture to a picture posted on a server. This forum doesn't have one for that purpose.

Old Navy, ... what do you think the box under the box where posts are written does ?
The one that says " attach a file" ?
It is only if you want to put more than one picture into one post that you need to provide your own server....

Well I'll be hornswaglled, I hadn't noticed the critter. :p :o ;)

This has been brought to you by "Another Senior Moment" from SwampEastMO. :eek: :D

Old navy.......

Pay no attention to him. He used to fly helicopters for a living. Need I say more...............:D

He is probably like this F14 Tomcat jockey I knew before I retired. I use to tell him about once a month that he few too high, too many times without his O2 turned on. :D :eek: :cool:

It's 100% dependant on what you want, 0% on what you need.

For me, there is no replacement or subsititute for my coupe (except maybe another coupe), but this is what I wanted, so this is what I bought. You can ride the bus if you really NEED to get somewhere. This is all about choice.