I've always wondered if it is harmfull to the synchros to take the tranny out of gear w/o using the clutch? Also how about shifting w/o using the clutch if the revs of the engine match the revs of the tranny? I've done this w/o any problems on other cars but I was wondering if the MB manual trannies could be used the same way.

__________________
DJ


84 300D Turbodiesel 190K with 4 speed manual sold in 03/2012

What would be the purpose?

__________________
Jimmy L.
'05 Acura TL 6MT
2001 ML430 My Spare

Gone:
'95 E300 188K "Batmobile" Texas Unfriendly Black
'85 300TD 235K "The Wagon" Texas Friendly White
'80 240D 154K "China" Scar engine installed
'81 300TD 240K "Smash"
'80 240D 230K "The Squash"
'81 240D 293K"Scar" Rear ended harder than Elton John

I put mine in neutral on a regular basis, always have, and never had a problem. Shifting into gear is a little trickier, I do it only on rare occasions and when I have to (I've had a varity of clutch problems). If you miss its rough on the gears, syncros and drive train. My motorcycle is easier and I rarely use the clutch with that.

__________________
5 speed '91 190E 2.6 320,000 mi. (new car, fast, smooth as silk six, couldn't find any more Peugeots)
5 speed '85 Peugeot 505 2.5l Turbo Diesel 266,000 mi. (old car, fast for a diesel, had 2 others)
5 speed '01 Jetta V6 (new wifes car, pretty quick)
5 speed '85 Peugeot 505 2.2l Turbo Gas 197,000 mi. (wifes car, faster, sadly gone just short of 200k )
5 speed '83 Yamaha 750 Maxim 14,000 mi. (fastest)
0 speed 4' x 8' 1800 lb Harbor Freight utility trailer (only as fast as what's pulling it)

I put mine in neutral at long lights because only when the clutch is depressed is the ThrowOut bearing Working....
I am a careful driver and would NOT want the Throwout bearing to wear out before the Clutch... that would really torque my tail..... but at least mine is prehensile..... I have tractors which have greasable throwout bearings...

I always leave the car in neutral while idling at a light no matter how long I sit as I feel the more life I can get out of the clutch linings the better. The less I need to use the clutch I figure I can get more miles out of the linings. That's were I was wondering if I could damage the transmission by taking it out of gear when coasting down to a light or just simply slowing down without using the clutch. I've actually been able to go through all the gears while in traffic without using the clutch but it seems a little hard on the transmission at times. It doesn't come out of gear without the clutch easily sometimes either.
I've never had the opportunity to ask this question to anyone before.

__________________
DJ


84 300D Turbodiesel 190K with 4 speed manual sold in 03/2012

Years ago when first learning to drive in a 57 VW bug, I was cautioned to use the clutch and transmission less than I was, because the brakes are a lot cheaper to repair/replace than the clutch & tranny. Several years later while tearing my '29 Ford 'A' apart, I learned by examining all of those parts just why that was true. Have you torn an MB clutch and tranny out or rebuilt either item? Have you replaced the calipers and or pads in the front brakes? Well I can guarantee you that the tranny rebuilding is way more involved and costly than all the rest of these tasks put together. Use the Brakes to slow the car down, and use the Clutch to shift the gears. Yes both wear and will eventually need to be repaired or replaced, but tranny rebuilds are expensive!

__________________
1961 190Db retired
1968 220D/8 325,000
1983 300D 164,150

I would agree fully here with Leathermang, not worth scoring the synchros or ruining the throwout bearing on the clutch. I use my clutch for my shifting and my gearboxes have run trouble free and I have had my clutch easily go over 200,000Km.

For motorcycles I would not recommend clutchless shifting either unless one has the air shifter for power shifting during drags. I have seen the great Valentino Rossi upshift clutchless but downshift with clutch but then in case of a genius like Rossi, the who equation is different unlike us mortals.

Gotta have straight cut gears if you want to float 'em without touching the clutch, like what we've got in 10 spd tractor trailer rigs. Does anybody actually float their gears in the Mercedes Benz?

And never downshifting but piddling along at 40mph (or less) in 4th gear strikes me as piss-poor driving habbit, overtaxing and lugging the engine below its power band.

Even worse is NOT downshifting into corners but slamming on the brakes instead... Far, far better to keep up your revs and drop to 3rd without touching the brakes while slowing down at/below 55mph while tackling windey country roads.

Basically, downshifting is good driving habbit that sustains traction. Say while going from 65mph to 25mph on curvey ice-covered Indiana exit ramps in wintertime, you better be using all your gears instead of pumping the brakes or you will be gliding and sliding in 4th gear.

Dunno about of the rest of you guys, but I'm constantly shifting up and down with the 240D sometimes skipping 3rd at dropping from 4th to 2nd approaching red lights, thats all.

Constantly paddling through the gears is one of the greatest pleasures my 240D provides. Why should I let worrying about clutch wear dictate my driving habbits from keeping the engine spinning at peak revs for maximum performance. Even accelerating at tortoise pace, I downshift at the same rpm's using the same power band while slowing down.

Otherwise never using the gears to "save the clutch" is like saying that it's horrible to fishtail around corners while having fun in the wintertime because the tires wear out. Or maybe nobody should take country road curves at warp speed because the Bilsteins will get tired.

__________________
'80 300SD/ w116
'79 240D 4-spd
'71 750cc Guzzi

previously owned:

'83 240D 4-spd
'77 280SEL 4-spd
'74 280/8
'72 250/8
'65 220Sb 4-spd
'63 220Sb 4-spd
'63 190c 4-spd
'61 220Sb 4-spd
'60 190b 4-spd

When I drive the bug dad told me the same thing, brakes are cheaper than a new clutch setup. This is true...I don't like using the clutch to downshift that car regularly just becuase since it is so light...it jerks you around a lot...the benz's...I dunno.
Compression braking is nice at times but I still like rolling up slow in stickshifts and not really having to stop at all!
I have the bug driving down to the point that I can roll to a stop sign, and take off in 1st gear without even using the clutch or stalling...amazing huh? haha
and I ALMOST come to a complete stop...more than I normally would
I don't know...in a car you plan to work on yourself, and don't know its past history, I would take care of it unless you like ripping things apart and replacing, whatnot..
Something you know bumper to bumper, tire to piston? I'd do however you please and what you THINK is good for your car...
Then again...a VW engine can be pulled, clutch replaced, and back in the car in a matter of minutes for the average well learned VW owner
2 bolts, 2 nuts, 3 cables, 3 hoses, a few screws, a few wires (depends on year and modifications ), a jack+jostling and a VW engine is on the ground..
lovely cars

Make sure you have the correct lube in your tranny. Mine had gear oil and I am convinced that was a major contributing factor in the wear on the synchros. When I got the car you really had to time the shifts to keep it from scratching. And it wasn't just me, I have shifted unsynchronized transmissions before. After I changed to Type A ATF the trans shifts much more easily.

I will probably end-up with Redline MT for lube, learned about here running some searches.

On shifting without the clutch, I assume that as long as you are not scratching the gears you are not doing any damage.

We had an old SAAB that had a freewheeling device. You could shift when it was freewheeling, just an automatic clutch.

I guess "floating" is the term I was looking for. I have found that the 230's gear box goes into gear quite nicely at times w/o the clutch if the revs of the engine are matched to the tranny just right. I find that driving in traffic is much less tiring while driving a manual if I can float the gears and not use the clutch so often.

__________________
DJ


84 300D Turbodiesel 190K with 4 speed manual sold in 03/2012

DieselDog, I would agree that downshifting and upshifting is very necessary during driving over the road, especially where the terrain has lots of ups and downs and the car is not blessed with a lot of HP. I guess where I was told and where I tend to agree that downshifting is over done, is in the case of straight line speed reductions for stop signs and stop lights. You are going to stop, and the engine braking obtained is not that big a deal. The case where you are just slowing down for a hard right turn is another example of a strong need to downshift and with straight cut teeth and no synchros it takes a lot of practice.

__________________
1961 190Db retired
1968 220D/8 325,000
1983 300D 164,150