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  #1  
Old 01-12-2005, 12:49 PM
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300SDL with broken chain. How much damage?

There is a broken down 87 300SDL listed in the paper here at a "Haul off" price.
The car has 250k miles on it and had the head off 30K miles ago by a someone that you would have to assume as a competent mechanic. (I think that the mechanic was one from the dealership who "moonlighted" the job).
I haven't looked at it yet but according to the owner, it was running down the road just fine fine and suddenly "lunched out". It has a broken chain which has busted a hole in the valve cover gasket. Before I go look at it I would like to have an idea of what the potential damage might be so that I can make a damage assessment.

I figure that the most likely scenerio is that the vacuum pump failed and broke the chain. It is probably a reasonable assumption that any mechanic would have replaced the chain when the head came off.

What else could cause a chain break?

1. When a 603 motor breaks a chain and comes to a violent end what other kind of mechanical damage usually occurs?
2. When the pistons "kiss the valves" I am sure that it bends a few valves but does it also break the cam or bend the connecting rods?
3. Is there usually any piston damage or head damage?

I have been reading the forum regularly for the last 8 months and am aware of all the inherent 603 problems like cracked heads and vacuum pump failures so I know how something like this can be a money pit.
I would appreciate getting thoughts and ideas on the subject from other guys on the forum.

I did a search and could not find anything specific about broken chains in 603 engines but maybe I searched on the wrong keywords.

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  #2  
Old 01-12-2005, 01:04 PM
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If it has an updated head, and the head is in good shape that alone is probably worth $1k

I would suspect the reason the chain failed is maybe the person who did the head job did not crimp the chain properly.

Vac pump cauld also have done it. What are they asking for it? SDL's have some valuable parts on them, I have been looking for one to part out for a year.
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  #3  
Old 01-12-2005, 01:07 PM
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at a "haul-off" price, you should probably consider the engine as having value and parts only. If the rest of the vehicle is nice, and you think you can locate a decent used engine, and you think you can do an engine swap, then that might be a good deal for you. If it turns out the engine is more easily fixable, better for you, but it's value is parts only unless you can hear it run(which you can't)
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  #4  
Old 01-12-2005, 01:31 PM
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I just finished fixing an SD that broke a chain because of vacuum pump failure. The cam had broken.

That was the second MB motor I've repaired from a timing chain break. One bent the valves, the other broke the cam. Neither had head damage nor piston damage.

If the SDL has a #14 version head, replace it with a #17 or above. Someone else on the board just picked up one for something like $1000.
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'05 E320 CDI - 86,000 miles
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'85 300SD - 150,000 miles (sold)
'89 190D - 120,000 miles (sold)
'85 300SD - 317,000 miles (sold)
'98 ML320 - 270,000 miles (sold)
'75 300D - 170,000 miles (sold)
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  #5  
Old 01-12-2005, 04:22 PM
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It might be boneyard bound!

Thanks for the responses. I decided to call Mike at Metric for his perspective on things. He says that the fact that the valve cover was busted indicates that the motor has sustained comprehensive damage. Best guess is bent valves, busted pistons, broken cam, bent rods and maybe even a messed up head. It doesn't even seem like a good core outside of the block and the crank. A new motor with everything but the accessories is $6,700 plus $900 core and $300 shipping.
I am just curious. How do you separate a seized motor from a transmission? Do you remove the motor and tranny and then undo all of the bell housing bolts and then spin the tranny around to undo the bolts on the torque converter. I may go check it out to see what it has on it so I can let everyone know if it goes to the local boneyard.
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  #6  
Old 01-12-2005, 04:44 PM
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I think there is a 300SDL Motor on ebay right now............

Stephen
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  #7  
Old 01-12-2005, 04:45 PM
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Yup............. It's in Georgia

300SDL Motor - Ebay

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  #8  
Old 01-12-2005, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughet
Thanks for the responses. I decided to call Mike at Metric for his perspective on things. He says that the fact that the valve cover was busted indicates that the motor has sustained comprehensive damage. Best guess is bent valves, busted pistons, broken cam, bent rods and maybe even a messed up head. It doesn't even seem like a good core outside of the block and the crank. A new motor with everything but the accessories is $6,700 plus $900 core and $300 shipping.
I am just curious. How do you separate a seized motor from a transmission? Do you remove the motor and tranny and then undo all of the bell housing bolts and then spin the tranny around to undo the bolts on the torque converter. I may go check it out to see what it has on it so I can let everyone know if it goes to the local boneyard.
I wouldn't be so fast to write off the engine. I've seen cases where the valve cover was broken by the chain with no other damage other than a few bent valves.

But you can also get a whole engine from Adsit for $5400.

http://www.adsitco.com/catalog/productdetail.asp?ID=5591

Or just the head for $1615

http://www.adsitco.com/catalog/productdetail.asp?ID=6252

The 300SD I got had a broken timing chain, cam and vacuum pump. I put it all back together again for about $300. It CAN happen.
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'05 E320 CDI - 86,000 miles
'86 300SDL - 360,000 miles
'85 300SD - 150,000 miles (sold)
'89 190D - 120,000 miles (sold)
'85 300SD - 317,000 miles (sold)
'98 ML320 - 270,000 miles (sold)
'75 300D - 170,000 miles (sold)
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  #9  
Old 01-12-2005, 05:32 PM
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If you are careful you should be able to leave the torque converter bolted to the flywheel. Just unbolt the bellhousing, support the transmission and slide the engine forward. Once the torque converter clears the input shaft you can jack the motor up and out. RT
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  #10  
Old 01-12-2005, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughet
I decided to call Mike at Metric for his perspective on things. He says that the fact that the valve cover was busted indicates that the motor has sustained comprehensive damage. Best guess is bent valves, busted pistons, broken cam, bent rods and maybe even a messed up head. It doesn't even seem like a good core outside of the block and the crank.
Hmmmm.

A damaged valve cover indicates that their are busted pistons, bent rods and messed up head?

And this perspective is coming from a person who sells rebuilt engines.

Hmmmm.

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  #11  
Old 01-13-2005, 12:57 PM
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Brian,
In fairness to Mike at Metric I probably misstated his response. I asked him what the possible areas of damage were and he responded with what he had seen in the past. He said that it is impossible to tell without tearing down the motor (which we all know) and he said that I probably had a 50-50 chance of having a useable core.
I have done a couple of basket cases before and know that you have to do a worst case scenerio before you take them on or you will end up in a money pit. Thats all I was trying to do.
One thing that is interesting is that ADSIT advertises in their catalog that "603 engines come with NEW cylinder heads". Does that mean that you get the new slanted prechamber and more efficient combustion chamber like in the 300D 2.5? (There is a good article in the May/June 1990 Star about that)
I guess I will go look at the car. I will keep you guys posted.

On a side note, my first basket case was a 66 Jag e-Type roadster that I bought in Baton Rouge in 1971 for $800. A friend (who was a mechanical genius) and I answered a newspaper ad and went out to the owner's house. It was a carnival atmosphere with about 10 mechanics looking at the pile of parts and scratching their heads at a motor that was much more exotic than anything they had encountered at the time. There was a big crowd because the XKE was the ultimate 60s car (Its what Austin Powers drives) and this car was everyones dream car and worth about 4 grand running. The block was hanging by rope from a garage rafter and the crank was leaning up against a wall. The rest of the car was in 17 warehouse boxes. The owner's wife had stubbed her toe on the cylinder head lying in the hall on the way to the bathroom and said "that sucker's got to go!"
My friend reached into his pocket and pulled out a micrometer and started mikeing the bores and journals and looking through the parts. In about 3 minutes he gave me the "autopsy" report on the motor. An incompetent mechanic had done a clutch job on the car (which includes about 12 hours of R&R because the motor had to be removed for the job). He failed to replace the graphite throwout bearing, a 5 dollar part that has to be changed along wit the clutch disk because it wears down at about the same rate. When he got the motor back in the car the clutch would not engage so he welded a piece of a bolt to the rod on the slave cylinder. as it turned out, he welded too much which caused the clutch to be ridden constantly and the pressure spun the thrust washer. When the crank started started bouncing back and forth it was obvious that the motor was "lunched". My friend said, "It is complete and you can get it back together for $400 and sell it for around $3,500." We picked it up with a horse trailer that afternoon and had it back on the road in a couple of months. It was such a cool car I decided to keep it.
My wife and I cruised around town for 15 years in our $1,200 car. By 1987, it was in need of repair so I went through a complete restorationin my carport. I balanced and blueprinted the motor, respoked the wire wheels, did a down to bare metal body restoration rechromed all the chrome and put a complete original specification interior in it. By the time I finished it, the value of a 66 XKE had gone through the roof and everywhere I drove it people were making offers. It got to be worth so much that I was afraid to drive it! I ended up selling it and I got enough money to pay off my house and to buy a broken down 65 230SL which I fixed up and is my current sports car.
Basket cases can be good because if you are familiar with the car you can calculate what your worst case cost can be. Sometimes you can fix chrinic problems. I have had an 84 300SD for 10 years and have done all of the maintenance on it so I have a pretty good idea how to evaluate a 300SDL. The problem with a 300SDL with a broken down motor is that the end value of a perfectly running car is somewhere between 6 and 9 grand best case and you have to plan to keep the car for a long time to justify the fix up cost. From what I have read in the forum the 603 with its head problems and vacuum pump problems is not as solid as the 617 so I would be inclined to go with an updated motor if possible. after all, the current owner probably spent over 8 grand for the car and a couple of grand to have the head gone over only to see it all go out with a bang and a whimper.
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  #12  
Old 02-28-2005, 07:47 AM
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I am just curious. How do you separate a seized motor from a transmission? Do you remove the motor and tranny and then undo all of the bell housing bolts and then spin the tranny around to undo the bolts on the torque converter. I may go check it out to see what it has on it so I can let everyone know if it goes to the local boneyard.

Most likely the engine isn't seized but just will not turn in its normal direction of rotation because a piston is up against a valve. If you turn it back wards you should be able to remove the toque converter bolts with out a problem.

A broken cam chain does not = a seized engine just one that you can not force around but it will turn back wards unless some horrendous activity was being done when the cam chain broke.
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  #13  
Old 02-28-2005, 08:39 AM
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There's probably a big difference between losing the timing chain at 80-mph on the interstate and losing it on startup or at idle. I'm not sure when the maximum force is applied to the timing chain, but I would thing a startup situation would be likely. On the other hand the loss at 80-mph you could speculate might be a bad link crimp.

Hard to say the cause, but the damage at 80-mph is got to be a lot worse, don't you think?

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  #14  
Old 02-28-2005, 10:23 AM
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Its funny to me that no one has weighed in on this from my post about my 240D that lost its timing chain at speed on the interstate. I think 4 of the 5 people who weighed in said that I should just buy another engine as it was impossible to tell if there were microscopic cracks in the crank or pistons without tearing down the engine and it was likely it would fail again after I spent the $$$ to replace the chain, do a valve job etc. I pulled the head this weekend and found broken cam towers but the pistons "looked" fine. I need to drop the oil pan and look at the crank gear and other pieces but at this point I'm going to put it together as is and see what happens. These cars are incredibly durable and well-engineered. I wouldn't be surprised if the cam bearings/towers are designed to fail in the event of a timing chain break instead of lunching the rest of the engine. I think the only way you will know how bad the damage is is to start tearing into it. I think the fact that I have a stick shift may have helped in my case - I was able to immediately disengage the engine instead of leaving it in gear and pulling over to the side of the road like many non-wrenching mercedes owners would do.

Good luck!
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  #15  
Old 02-28-2005, 10:41 AM
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It is interesting that this old thread became active on the day that the car was relisted in the paper.
In January I went over to look at the car and concluded that it was junkyard bound. The interior was trashy and the body was rusty. It looked like it had been parked for a few months. I figured that even if I could find a good motor for a thousand dollars or so, it would cost around 10 grand to restore the interior, fix the rust, paint it, redo the suspension etc. etc....Better to wait for a good one to come along where the costs of fix up are easier to determine.
The car was going down the road when the motor blew up so it is very likely that the motor is not easily repairable.
The owner is advertising the car for $800 (a good parts car price if you don't have to tow it too far so if any of you need a good parts car (or are looking for a money pit) it is out there.

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