My girlfriend's Saturn SC started burning oil at roughly the same mileage and had a few other fit and finish problems. Since then she has an 2002 Civic EX coupe and it has not had one problem in the 30k+ miles we've had it. The only problem I have which she argues otherwise is that I feel it's too good and therefore boring.

As for GM, why do they use the SAME plasticky radio and climate control plastic for every car? I would hope that the Z06 has different or at least better switchgear than the Aveo!

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1974 240D 3.0L 4(M) - 250K -OM617.910 + 300D FW + Rajay turbo power!
1977 6.9 3(A) - 84k

Its pretty obvious that delanos got issues with GM. I know plenty of folks happy with Saturns, they last well, and are decent cars for the money. I am less than thrilled with most of GM's lineup but then again I don't really care for ANYTHING offered by any maker right now. Composite cam gears have been around for years. They usually last at least 100K before needing replacement. Even our vaunted 617's need a chain and rails at 150K. Pushrod engines are old tech but they work great. The newest GM pushrod engines make just as much power and anyone elses and usually with better mpg's. I see no problem with a pushrod design. They are easier to make, more compact and generally easier to work on. For the average use they receive why would you need a OHC design? Heres a quick comparison: Look at GM, Ford and Chryslers V8 trucks. Generally the GM's get the best MPG's, Ford is second and Chrysler third. If the OHC is so great why is it not delivering better mpg's? Another good example is the Corvette. It just flattens all competition that costs 2-3times more. And it will still deliver high 20mpg's on the highway. From a pushrod engine. OHC has its place when high rpm is needed or packaging allows its easy use like on FWD cars. RT

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When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
84' Mercedes Benz 300D Anthracite/black, 171K
03' Volkswagen Jetta TDI blue/black, 93K
93' Chevrolet C2500HD ExCab 6.5TD, Two-tone blue, 252K

That's the kind of reply I was eliciting. Nobody ever explained to me why pushrod designs were still viable, only treated them as if they weren't. Yeah I got issues with GM. Why is their flagship the only car worth having? Those of you that would buy a CTS, have you taken a gander at the sheer amount of ugly cheap plastic that adorns the exterior of that thing? And the lack of interior space? I know everybody's playing the cheap plastic game nowadays, but GM needs to be superlative. They need to win not just suffice themselves being an 'also ran'. They need to have kids with posters on their walls. They need benchmark cars. They need compelling reasons for people to go out and buy their cars again. They need serious passenger car diesel R&D and to focus on performance AND economy. They need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Even Lexus is embracing the diesel potential with the IS 2.2 diesel 4, 175hp, 300lb/ft, 6sp manual.
Sorry I was a Chevy man the first 20 years of my life./end rant

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'02 BMW 325i
'85 300D 450k
'93 190E 2.6 170k(killed by tree)
'08 Ducati Hypermotard 1100S 6k
'06 Ducati S2R800 14k(sold)

Seems you guys haven't been around new GM technology in the HP end... getting a pushrod motor to run to 6500rpm isn't a feat by anymeans, 7000 is a bit different due to drag from the mains, oiling issues, rod bolt strength, etc. Don't just assume they can rev to 5000 and be done, that's pretty silly.

Next, I've owned all sorts of vehicles from lots of different makers, worked on gobs more, yet driven countless more. A TownCar, C5, LS1 Z28, few trucks, etc. None more irritating currently than the 1996 LS400 that my mother owns I have to work on.

Parts are ABSURD to purchase. Trying to work on is a joke. If you're in the least bit tall like I am, forget these cars... they're built for small people. The motor is in fine shape but the vehicle is falling apart around it now, big time. My F150 is in better overall condition than it is, seriously.

Every brand has it's downfall and upside, it's the nature of the beast to meet CAFE regulations (Corp Avg Fuel Econ), EPA restrictions, and the like.



Now, I do agree GM does build a lot of lame products that have very little appeal. Many parts are mismatched for the application and they have pretty big time tuning issues they include in new vehicles to stray from warranty work too.

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I'm not a doctor, but I'll have a look.

'85 300SD 245k
'87 300SDL 251k
'90 300SEL 326k

Six others from BMW, GM, and Ford.

Liberty will not descend to a people; a people must raise themselves to liberty.[/IMG]

I have only one thing to say-aluminum head diesel(and we know what that means!)

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1982 300DT 190K (Diesel Purge + synthetic oil=smoothness at last!!!)
2004 Ford E-350 6.0 L PSD 227K
2006 Dodge Ram 3500 SRW HO Cummins 4X4 48RE 42K (brute force tow vehicle)
2005 Scion xB wife's rolling pop can
1993 GMC Sierra C3500 6.2 142K

The problem is,they're building it to disintegrate in, at most, 4-5 years so they can sell you another one or eat you alive with all the decontented plasticky worthless cr@p they put in them. I have to disagree with the Saturn people:with the exception of the Pontiac-derived 2.5L and the Cavalier 2.0/2.2 Ecotec, GM has not built a decent 4 cylinder in its history(maybe in the early 1900s/a flathead??). I have seen so many well maintained looking Saturns trailing a blue cloud, I would be scared to death to buy one-my 300D smokes less than most of them!

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1982 300DT 190K (Diesel Purge + synthetic oil=smoothness at last!!!)
2004 Ford E-350 6.0 L PSD 227K
2006 Dodge Ram 3500 SRW HO Cummins 4X4 48RE 42K (brute force tow vehicle)
2005 Scion xB wife's rolling pop can
1993 GMC Sierra C3500 6.2 142K

It's not a question of efficiency. Unless you get into variable valve timing, the pushrod engine can be as efficient as any. The 'disadvantage' in pushrods is that the upper rpm you want to run is limited by valve 'float.'

Under 4500 rpm or so, there is nothing wrong with pushrods, the engine is simple and reliable. It's hard to beat a simple, pushrod V8 in a low-revving car, and the fuel economy can be surprising.

Oh, and don't blame the engineers. Engineers produce what their managers direct them to produce. If they are handed an unlimited budget, they will give get an F1 engine. If there is a limited budget, they will give you get a KIA. Don't knock it until you've tried to design your own car from scratch to a budget... Besides, any car beats walking.../

Best Regards,
Jim

What 22 head bolts perside is a bad thing?

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I'm not a doctor, but I'll have a look.

'85 300SD 245k
'87 300SDL 251k
'90 300SEL 326k

Six others from BMW, GM, and Ford.

Liberty will not descend to a people; a people must raise themselves to liberty.[/IMG]

Aluminium heads on a diesel have worked out pretty well on volkswagen products. The old ones we used to change the head gaskets every 130 thousand miles as a preventative thing. Head gasket design has evolved many times over the years to cope with the dissimilar metal expansions of aluminum heads and cast iron blocks.Seems not to be as large a problem anymore on volkswagens. Head warpage or cracking not a big problem either unless you run them without coolant. In reality mercedes just blew it. Was not rocket science back then and is not now. In fact will even go a little farther. Mercedes did not seem to have the fortitude to solve a fairly easy design and engineering problem. Now appears to apply to many more areas of their current cars. A lot of car brands have eventually dissapeared once their quality and engineering have gone to pot. Demise of mercedes cars not a pleasant thought but a possibility as word will spread if just high price junk. Really think the trend has already started as given the choice of high dollar japan car and a mercedes I would not consider a new mercedes.

I am not even remotely concerned with having aluminum heads on a diesel or even an all aluminim diesel if it is properly engineered. Sure, aluminum is not as forgiving if you overheat the engine. So don't overheat it! Anyone with half a brain can keep this from happening. I have a VW diesel with 300+K on it. AFAIK its the original headgasket. Leaking a little oil at the front of the headgasket so I guess its finally time. That said I had to do the headgasket on my supposedly "bulletproof" cast iron 617 MB diesel with only 160K on the clock. Explain that one away. The reality of it is that you can find a group of people that dislike every car manufacturer for all the reasons stated in this thread and the other E class thread. You pays yo money and takes yo chances. Sometimes you get a lemon. RT

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When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
84' Mercedes Benz 300D Anthracite/black, 171K
03' Volkswagen Jetta TDI blue/black, 93K
93' Chevrolet C2500HD ExCab 6.5TD, Two-tone blue, 252K

Old vintage 1970s GM trucks are good, except for the rust issues. If it weren't for high gas prices, I would probally be trying to get the old Blazer I drove in high school going again. Anyone know how easy it would be to install a 6.2 or 6.3 in a 1976 Blazer?

Funny...my saturn at 120,000 miles has ZERO rattles and ZERO squeeks.....and uses 1/2 quart of oil in 3,000 miles whick is perfectly normal....better than average in fact.

Interior quality.....I love the leather seats....they fit my butt perfectly...very comfortible...and excellant support when driving spiritedly. Far better than the Benz seats.

Better fit and finish than the Honda I own.....

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Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
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Section 609 MVAC Certified
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

I don't know, I hang around several duramax forums and have only read of less than a half dozen head gasket issues. I know your allegiance is going to be to your cummins, and I would never say they are a bad engine. But 99% of the duramax head gasket rumors I hear are from Ford and Dodge owners, not GM drivers or mechanics.

And don't mention injector problems, as your cummins has the same system as my duramax. So for better or worse, we're in that one together.

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Keep everything as simple as possible-but no simpler--Albert Einstein

I see no problems with aluminum heads, mines still going strong at just shy of 250k miles so they seem like a pretty good thing.


As for the new Caddy's I spent a lot of time looking at the new ones recently at a car show. My Unlce wants a new car and is cross shopping the 525, G35, Acura TL, E class, and he was thinking about a Caddy. But the interiors are pretty cheap and not up to the standards of the best yet. Their is a lot of plastic and comarped to the new Acura's it is starting to even look a bit dated. Also the lay out of all of the controls isn't the greatist. Overall (I think it was a CTS) the outside looks pretty sharp without to much crap stuck on it. We came away thinking that Caddy is almost their but not quite, maybe in another 3-5 years they will be on par with the others.

As for the Saturns burning oil I think that is because of poor maintaince. Over at the Saturn forum they seem to stress 3k mile changes. Also not all years had the weak rings.

I am not 100% sure but I think the new ZO6 has an OHC V8 and not a pushrod. It would be out of place in a car of that quality. I am a big fan of the new Vette, the enginering and quality is just as good as anyone elses.

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1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

'You pays yo money and takes yo chances. Sometimes you get a lemon.'

Yup.

What about cachet? Why does GM have none? Why is it that the GM name is not synonymous with quality? If we pays our money and takes our chances, apparently whoever took their chances and bought GM got the shaft, as driving one carries zero cachet and might even be a complete waste of good money. There must be a reason for that, and I'm not arguing in favor of my bias against GM and calling all of you liars for pointing out some reasonable truths. Like I said before I would like it if there were compelling reasons to buy their products. I wish, for instance, that an American carmaker had as much cachet and respect as MB or Rolls. It seems all the esteemed American cars were made before '70.

'As for the Saturns burning oil I think that is because of poor maintaince. Over at the Saturn forum they seem to stress 3k mile changes. Also not all years had the weak rings.'

Hey I change my oil every 3k which is second nature for anyone who loves and understands cars, and especially for anyone who is paying good money for their car. The oil burning anomaly was definitley not caused by me.

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'02 BMW 325i
'85 300D 450k
'93 190E 2.6 170k(killed by tree)
'08 Ducati Hypermotard 1100S 6k
'06 Ducati S2R800 14k(sold)