I was at a local auto supply that serves as the communities auto a/c parts and supply house today. The fellow told me that they stopped making 134a and that another refrigerant is being phased in. He said that he has a pallet load of 30 pound cylinders and he will sell me them to me for $289 until they run out. He said when it gets hot, his cost is supposed to go up dramatically.

Also while I was there I heard him tell a customer on the phone who was asking for some r134 that Freeze 12 would be cheaper. So NOW the controversy will be about converting 134 systems to junk refrigerants.

About 3 or 4 weeks ago, I bought a 30 pound cylinder of R12 delivered to my door for $425 total cost. Maybe my stubbornness about converting 12 systems to 134 will work out even better than I thought. At this rate 134 may cost MORE than 12 by years end.

I'm sure glad I didn't put all that time and money into parallel flow condensors, and all the other stuff involved in converting to 134 only to end up with an a/c system that will cost more to fill than if I had left it alone.

I have a recovery machine set up for 134 so it will now CERTAINLY be worth recovering for reuse. I have recovered 134 in the past just to be legal.

I guess what goes around, comes around.

Have a great day,

What's your beef with so called "junk" refrigerants. As I have stated many times now I have been having great results with EnviroSafe ES12a. Its more efficient, does not need lined hoses and can be used with esther based lube so there are no corrosion problems. R134 was a bad idea right from the start.

__________________
Bill Reimels
Now down to one:
1972 300SE 3.5 W109 (Euro delivery)

This is what the salesmen coming into our shop are telling us...R134a has been aproved for use in europe so that while supplies are being shipped overseas there will be a shortage here. Don't know if it's true or not but that's what we were told.

BenQ
83sd just got it last week, first MB in family, doing lots of forum searching.
88 Aerostar
87 E250
72 Mustang

bilrei,

I have probably written the answer to your question at least 50 times on this forum, but what the heck, I'll write it again.

The junk refrigerants all fall into one of two categories; flammables or blends.

The flammables are illegal in 18 states plus they do a very poor job of circulating the lubricant for long compressor life.

Some of the blends also do a poor job circulating lubricant, but also the multiple components leak at different rates, thus if you get a leak, in order to recharge properly, you have to remove the entire charge and charge over again into an empty system.

The additional problem is that most, although not all, conversions are never labeled correctly or have the correct fittings installed. Ignoring for a moment that this violates Federal law, this also ends up causing LOTS of recoveries that contaminate otherwise reusable refrigerant. When this happens ALL the refrigerant in the recovery tank must be disposed of. This not only causes the loss of the otherwise reusable refrigerant in the tank, but also costs a disposal fee.

There are lots of shops with expensive recovery equipment and recovered refrigerant that suffer heavy losses due to this. These are guys that haul their tails out of bed and work hard to put shoes on the baby and food on the table just like the rest of us. If for no other reason, help these people out by at LEAST properly labeling and fitting such systems.

Lastly if Envirosafe was better than 134 or 12, it would, or would have been used by every refrigeration maker in the US.

Please don't take any offense at any of my comments. You asked a question and I am respectfully answering it. If you use this stuff it's your business. I'll use the correct refrigerant in systems that I service and the rest of you can do as you please.


My $0.02,

Larry, I thought that before you do anything, you can check it with some sort of meter to see if it is R12, R134A or something wierd in the system? I thought I heard a Snap-On guy peddling some tool like that?

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

"As I have stated many times "

You also referred to Trans-X as a snake oil... and since I know that not to be the case it hurts your credibility on other issues...

"I have been having great results with EnviroSafe ES12a."

We have no idea what your criteria are for objective measureing of these ' great results' .... and your one person trial does not stand up well to hundreds of billions of miles driven in cars using what the system was designed to use... R12...

AND everything Larry said is true.

I fully expect you to take offense at what I say.... even though it is simply stating the truth...

Yeah, refrigerant identifiers are pretty common and made by lots of companies. Some info on that here: http://www.ackits.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Sealer

Yes indeed, the junk refrigerant causes these same guys that are trying to buy shoes for the baby to spend another $1000 or so for a refrigerant identifier. Not everyone has one though.

Have a great day,

They won't stop making it until the patent runs out. Then they will outlaw 134 and patent something else and we will all have to convert to it.

I think the guy at the parts house must have meant that one manufacturer stopped making it resulting in a shortage rather than what I originally took away from his comments. That coupled with what BenQ says seems to make more sense.

He also said that there were a few new cars that have already converted to a different refrigerant. I don't know if the guy knew what he was talking about or not.

Also, I remember in my reading for the 609 there being something written about 134 REDUCED ozone layer depletion as compared to R12, but did not eliminate it. That leaves them wide open to coming up with something else and using this excuse to tighten the screws some more. I am not saying that I agree or disagree with the ozone layer depletion theory, I am only saying that this may be the excuse they use.

As far as the patent on R12 goes, the vast majority of R12 was sold AFTER the patent expired. The old story that Dupont got it outlawed so they could sell something else was a myth. They made plenty of money on it without concern for the patent, and would have made even more money if they could have kept selling it without having to "retool" for another product. There is a very good write up about this, or at least used to be, at www.aircondition.com.

Have a great day,

What I do not know about this subject, would fill volumes, but I did take Leathermang and Larry's advice and had my 1982 240D compressor replaced with a new (not rebuilt) compressor, and re-charged with R-12 last summer, and I have been very happy with the results so far.

Total cost was less than $1000.

george d

Ouch!!!!! I thought it was about a hundred or so dollars. I guess I was a little off, huh?

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

If the mechanic can determine you don't have R12 or R134 in your system there is a pretty good chance he is going to pass on doing any A/C work on your system. The problem is that you need seperate recovery systems for EACH unique type of refrigerant. Most shops are not going to bother keep recovery/recycle machines around to deal with Freeze12, Duracool, Propane, ect, ect. Of course I suspect that many people that use the alternative refrigerants don't have ANY recover/recycling equipment at all....

I seem to remember when I was studying for my 609 certification that there are specific service valves that are supposed to be used when systems are converted to non-standard refrigerants.

Larry is also spot-on with his R12 pricing observations - R12 prices are dropping like a stone. In another 5 years it will be cheaper than R134 (or whatever we have converted to from R134)

The ozone layer is all a crock. You know how much ozone is manufactured as opposed to depleted. Like so much junk science perfectly good products are ruined. Bring back R-12 and DDT and life would be better. I don't buy into the facist idea that government is going to outlaw 134 because the patent expired. Oh well. I suspect acutal science will show that ozone layer depletion is caused by natural phenomenon. Moral of this story is wear your sunscreen and junk scientists and bureaucrats get a life!

How do you determine it tho? I mean, you have the fittings that are different but you cannot tell if I have inserted anything without an analyser. AFAIK, when you switch to R134A, you change the hose fittings but no one will know if you insert other stuf in and use the same hose except hooked up to differerent containers, will you?

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow