pulling the head... adventure in the making
 

My beatiful car is sick :(

Mon night, after testing out whether my vent temperature is any colder after tweaking ACC some more (disconnecting electrical plug going to the vacuum switchover valve that controls opening the "fresh air scoop" -- the "long strke" one), I pulled in the Albertson's parking lot and noticed curious vapors arising from under the hood, and a rich trail of coolant behind the car. Turned out the upper radiator hose popped off the radiator fitting. Somehow, I haven't noticed the actual event. I don't believe that engine has actually overheated immediately prior to that, it was running at about 105-110C, give or take, but I can't really be sure. From the shape of the trail, looks like the hose came off very shortly before I pulled into the parking lot. Anyway, after reattaching the hose, putting in about half-gallon of coolant and driving home, upon getting there I discovered that the coolant overflow tank is empty again :mad: Next morning I added coolant again, and drove the car a bit around the parking lot, and it does consume coolant (although at a progressively slower rate) Checking oil level shows that it's about 1 inch above the max level, and the oil itself is way less viscous than what 15W40 is supposed to be. So it looks like my oil and coolant are travelling along the same roads now, likely due to a failed head gasket. So much for showing off my black beauty at the GTG (the car's actually drivable, but with so much coolant in the oil I doubt it's a good idea).

So I'm going to pull the head off the engine and see what the actual damage is. Greg, Randy & Co lifted my spirits some by expressing a high degree of confidence that it's just the head gasket itself that's blown, there shouldn't be any significant damage to the cylinder block or the head itself. It's uncharacteristic for me to express optimism, but I'm really hoping for that to be the case, I like this car a lot.

This will be my first foray into the innards of an automotive engine, so I'm sure it'll be adventurous. The job doesn't look that bad from the description in the FSM, but I'm sure the actual experience will be quite different. A few questions for the experts:

1) Can one obtain the required double-hex socket in some local store (e.g. Sears), or is it necessary to buy the actual MB tool (617 589 00 10 00)?

2) I lack an engine hoist, so the head will have to be lifted through the means of a few guys pulling it up. How much does the head on a 617 weigh?

3) I know the importance of KISS, and baby steps, etc., but what else should I keep an eye open for "while I'm in there"? Not necessarily for an immediate action, but to know what shape the engine's in (and if something can be proactively fixed easily, why not do it now)? The engine's got a lot of blowby.

Thanks,

yuri

Well, first of all, I'm no expert at removing a 617 head.

But, I'm in the process of doing exactly what you are contemplating for the exact same reasons. The 617 uses coolant and the oil analysis shows antifreeze.

So, I'm taking it rather slow myself. Here is what I know to date:

1) I picked up a set of double hex sockets (Lisle) from a local autoparts store. They are a bit pricey ($17.00 for a set of 4). I understand that Poop Boys or Autozone may have a set for less money.

2) RWT recently did the head on the 617 and he lifted it without any assistance. Without anything attached, it's weight is about 75 lbs. Without a hoist, you will need to remove the manifolds and turbo prior to removing the head. In my case, I'm going to borrow a hoist and leave them on the head.

3) My personal recommendation is to spend the extra money and have the head done properly by a shop that knows this engine. I still need to find a suitable shop locally to me. There are shops throughout the country, but, I'd prefer to avoid the rather steep shipping cost.

With regard to the blowby, it is likely a situation caused by rings. If so, you would need to make a decision whether to go into the bottom end of the engine. This is a major decision and usually means pulling the engine. Of course, once you get it all apart, you are typically looking at some serious change to replace the worn components. You get into the "while I'm already in there" syndrome in a big way.

As I write this, I've got all the accessories off the head and need to remove both oil supply and drain lines. Then I'm ready to remove the valve cover and start with the chain.

The FSM is almost a necessity if you have never done this job before.

Send me a PM if you have any questions and I'll let you know what I have done with it.

Coolant in oil
 

Coolant is heaver than oil. Try cracking open the oil drain plug and see what comes out of the bottom of your oil pan.

What color was the oil? If it was still jet black, you prolly don't have water in the oil. Is water blowing out your tailpipe? I recommend more analysis before pulling the head--it does not really sound like you got the engine hot enough and long enough to blow the gasket.

The oil on the SD is jet black. There is no sign of any coolant in the oil.

But the coolant reservoir loses about a pint every 1000 miles and the oil analysis is positive for glycol and has sodium and potassium in elevated numbers.

Operation of the 617 in this condition is not recommended due to potential damage to the main and rod bearings.

If you wait until you can see coolant on the dipstick, you have waited far too long. :(

I was addressing Rurik more than you. If he suddenly lost more than 1/2 gallon of coolant into the oil, I think the oil would not be jet black. Also, his description of the event did not make me think he had overheated to the extent of blowing a headgasket. I simply recommended that he do more analysis before jerking off the head. I did not recommend that he drive the car without further investigation.

Of course, he may have a blown gasket, but why tear into an engine without more evidence?

A bare head on a 617 weighs 65 pounds. With the valves and drive gear, add about 15 more. Now would be a good time for a valve job.

Remember that when lifting the head you will probably be leaning over the fender. Put something that weighs 75 lbs. on your workbench, back up 2 to 3 ft. and try to lift it. A blown out back at any age is a real drag.

Good point to make...the fact its at an awkward position makes that harder to lift...find someone to help lift it out...

This is an iron head engine. It is almost impossible to blow one of these head gaskets by overheating, especially if it only got to 115 C.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Just see if there is coolant in oil or vice versa. If not, fix the cooling system, fill and be happy.

Good luck,

wrong diagnosis
 

you got the wrong diagnosis dude....

if your oil is jet black becasue of diesel ash and no water in the
oil then forget about the engine....

here is your problem...

1. the neck of the radiators is made of plastic.... it very easily cracks
and your has cracked on the under side and there is enough neck left that you are able to reattach the hose... but get out and watch it and you will see coolant trickling down under the neck....

you need a new radiator.....the reason this happened is because its gotten really hot and perhaps you thermostat is stuck closed or is not opening fully..

So first thing is to remove your thermost....

second buy a used radiator.... or try some jb weld... jb weld worked for me for a couple of months... while i was looking for a radiator...

If your head gasket is bad you might see water in your oil.... and if your head is bad you would be smoking... cause the valves would be letting oil into the cylinders.

I'm with Larry. I would be surprised if you messed up the head gasket.
I would make doggone sure you had a head gasket issue before pulling the head.

" Checking oil level shows that it's about 1 inch above the max level, and the oil itself is way less viscous than what 15W40 is supposed to be."-Rurik

Blueranger.... how does this fit into your diagnosis ?

oily
 

thin oil is not good but the water will collect at the bottom of the pan. i am with the postition of doing more research before tearing off the head. there are tests that can be done to verify what is happening.
1. as noted above let some oil out and put it in a glass jar. if there is water in it it will settle to the bottom overnight or sooner.
2. after the hose broke he could have a void in the system of air trapped under the thermostat. it is normal to need to add coolant after it is warm enough to open the stat.
3. the iron heads are indeed tough and will run for some time wo any water without damage (dont try it though).
4. the radiator can also be pressure tested. this is much cheaper than buying one and trying it out.

step #1 is the most important.

You lucky SOB. I wish I had seen those first...

I found myself needing these more and more recently so I bought the 10 and 12mm triple square sockets from Snap-off. Cost me about $25-30 each in 1/2" drive.

For the head though, I'd go with the Hazet tool (the 617 p/n you mentioned in post #1). A long shaft on the tool is needed to access the bolts along the cam towers on some 617 engines. The snap on stuff just won't fit it.

If you still want another reason to pull the head off, check the rear of the head, its probably seeping oil. All 3 of mine are :)

Explain in more detail. Will these Lisle bits fit the head bolts? If not, why not?? :confused:

John is right. The cam towers are too close and you need the extra length to get past the tower. If it is too short the female end of the bit is too big in diameter to fit by the tower. We did the 1985 two months ago and the memory of it is still fresh in my mind. The job was way easier than I thought it would be even with the dreaded trap oxidizer. We did the valve job ourselves including all the valve guides. The exhaust guides were shot. We just bit the bullet and bought the MB tool. I think the tool cost us $35. The car runs like a champ now.

Terrrific. :(

Thanks for the heads up. ;)

Look at it this way Brian you have two Benzs to take care of just like Dad and I do. Sometime you will need the tool again and it sure is nice knowing that it is in your tool chest. Or look at it this way once you have the tool it is good insurance that you will never need it again.

If I buy it, and that causes the 603 to never need it, I'll be a happy boy. :cool:

Thanks for advice everyone.

I'm going to investigate this some more before thinking more about pulling the head. I'll try to get some solid evidence. Unfortunately, most of the easy checks are quite subjective. For instance, "jet black" is not something that I can trust my eyes to identify. Oil viscosity is also not a good metric, at the current ambient temperature it's quite different from the last time I handled used oil. Oil level on the dipstick is not subjective, but who knows, it's not like I last checked it the day before losing coolant. My memory's bad, and I'm not just saying it.

I drained some oil from the bottom of the pan, it doesn't look like there was any visible amount of water there, which is encouraging. I poured some oil in a glass bottle, and also poured some in another bottle, added some water and shook. We'll see how it looks after settling overnight; if the water layer looks greenish, that'd be a bad sign. I guess I'll just need to get oil analisys done to be sure.

Blueranger could be on the money about a radiator crack. There's some wetness around the top of the radiator. There was coolant splashed all over the engine compartment when the hose popped off, and pretty much everything was wet, but most of that should probably have evaporated by now. The coolant that I added was 2 parts Prestone 1 part water, I don't know how quickly that mix is supposed to evaporate though. I did try looking for any leaks while the car was running, and couldn't see any, but I'll try again, harder. What I don't understand though is how the fluid level in the overflow tank could drop so much as to require adding half a gallon worth of coolant, in a span of 10 min, without any coolant dropping on the ground. That's just too much liquid to simply evaporate on the way down. Where could all this coolant go?

This comment is very interesting:
How normal is it to keep on having to add more coolant after having a loose hose? I had to add it three times, basically each time after driving a car, although each time I had to add progressively less. Is it feasible to have a void in the system that could be responsible for several quarts of coolant? Note that the engine temperature is OK now, holding around 85C (with AC off), which I presume means the thermostat is working.

I'll get busy reading about radiator and thermostat issues. Can't say I'm thrilled about the prospect of having to buy a new (at least to me) radiator, but that's life... Again, thanks for your help everyone.

This is pretty typical. Once the coolant gets quite low, there are pockets of air that develop in the system and you can't get them out until the thermostat opens.

I found an interesting situation with the 617 when I was taking the thermosat housing off. I had drained the radiator and the expansion tank via the plug on the bottom. Figure the system is fairly well drained, right??

Take the thermostat housing off and about a quart of coolant pours out of the head and block onto the garage floor. :eek:

Why? Well, the loop in the system with the thermostat closed prevents any coolant from leaving the head via the lower hose.

So, any air in the head or the block cannot escape until you run the engine back up to temperature and the thermostat opens.

Rurik, shake up that oil and then place a few drops on your HOT HONDA exhaust manifold... if it sizzles it has water in it...

oil and water
 

........dont mix..... i always heard.

Not sure what you are meaning by that.... oil and water can certainly be mechanically mixed for a period of time.... oil and vinegar salad dressing for example... and by oil pump in the engine... or if enough water is added to bring the oil level high enough to contact the bottom of the crank .... will certainly mix and foam the oil.....
Certainly water and bearings do not mix well.

Brian- post a picture of the tools that you bought, I've never heard of the brand.

Here you go.

They are made pretty decent.

oil and water
 

dont mix. when i use them on a salad it is no exception.

if there is water it will settle to the bottom of the pan. if it is enough to pick up you get straight water to the bearings...sure failure. so... if you drain it out from the drain you can see if water settles to the bottom. i suppose it might mix a little but it wont be oil... it will be something that will destroy the engine in short order.

Here's a shot of the tool I have. Turns out its a stahlwillie, works just as good :)

I think the older engines only used the 6-sided hex bolts- I took apart a 1978 617 before and don't recall ever needing this tool to do it.

Yep, that has some good length to it.

Is it possible to remove the towers to get access to the cap screws, or are they part of the casting?

oil and water
 

more specifically, the point is that the test of dripping on something hot and seeing if it steams will not be effective except under very specific conditions, if at all. if the water is in the bottom of the pan (and it will be in a matter of minutes) and he pulls out the dipstick and takes a drop, it will be pure oil unless there is so much it is on the dipstick. if there is any water above the oil pickup, which is situated very low so that it will pick up any oil that is there, the engine will be damaged even if it passes the steaming drop test.

so i guess the steaming drop test will work if the oil and water are all foamed up for a few minutes after shut down. and if that is the case the bottom end is most likely damaged already.... right?

same problem
 

the new radiators have a metal insert because the moths of these radiators are so week and break so often... and your hose could have never popped off. So instead of a major break you just got a tiny crack on the bottom of the neck... you said yourself your reserve has to be filled up and that is half a gallon of water.. how many times have you done this... i bet 2 or 3 and where has the water gone... if it was in the oil your dip stick would show the extra half gallon....

If an extra quart was in your dip stick would show it :cool:

Also I have had this problem and found a crack on the bottom of the reserve tank....

Leatherman
 

" Checking oil level shows that it's about 1 inch above the max level, and the oil itself is way less viscous than what 15W40 is supposed to be."-Rurik

Blueranger.... how does this fit into your diagnosis ?


We got two guys with the same symptoms going on in this thread... You have a head gasket problem... But the other fellow has a coolant system problem.... So if I was you I would go ahead and pull the head have it reworked... put new rings in and do the whole 9 yards....


:cool:

I've done a few more field tests to determine whether there's water in my oil, and they all came up either negative or inconclusive.

I drained some oil from the bottom of the pan (the car's been sitting there for 24h) into a transparent bottle, and let it settle for another 24h. No clear sign of a water layer. It may be there, but I can't see it, so it can't be much.

I also did a slight variation of the above, with an excess amount of water added to try to wash out the antifreeze compound out of the oil. After a period of settling, I can't see any sign of green in the water layer.

I did the sizzle test (Greg, do you really think one can easily reach the exhaust manifold on a new Honda? Large plastic lid is about all you can see in the engine compartment -- although they still let you check oil level, probably not for long), using a hot pan. There were a few bubbles popping up, but not really enough to qualify as "sizzle".

I'm now inclined to believe that Blueranger's explanation (about all that extra coolant going back into the cooling circuit to replace air pockets that formed after a popped hose) is the most plausible one. After all those tests, there's just no way all of that coolant that disappeared could be in the oil. I suppose there's a slight chance that the coolant could be going straight into the firing chamber rather than the oil circuit, but then I'm guessing there'd be a lot more white smoke than my car makes (it smokes, but not much when engine's hot). I'll get an oil analisys done to be sure, but I think the car's safe to drive for short distances, I'll just have to watch the coolant level like a hawk. The jury's still out on whether the radiator's neck is cracked. I'll probably need to get the engine nice and hot to be able to see it.

Again, thanks for very valuable help everyone. It's very much appreciated.

Blackstone
 

Rurik,
On second consideration, I think I'd let Blackstone do an analysis on that oil before pulling your head. I have several extra Blackstone Labs oil sample kits (I asked for 6 and they sent me two sets - 12!!). You are welcome to have a couple of them.

leaks
 

if it is leaking into the combustion chamber it will collect while shut down and blow steam at start up. steam is noticably different than oil or fuel smoke as it is there but evaporates as you watch it. hope that is not what you have. glad you didnt tear the head off.

Siberian Gulag
 

"I did the sizzle test ( exhaust manifold ..... Honda?) "

I only said the Honda so that no one would think that I suggested heating up your engine while the problem had not been diagnosed....

There will have to be some penalty applied for giving out false clues concerning the symptoms of your engine. Over filling of the oil in an engine can cause rapid oxygenation and foaming... drastically reducing the life of the lubrication properties of the oil...
Since I know you are mechanically savvy... when you said
" Checking oil level shows that it's about 1 inch above the max level, and the oil itself is way less viscous than what 15W40 is supposed to be. So it looks like my oil and coolant are travelling along the same roads now"
a blown head gasket was the only logical conclusion.

I WISH I were mechanically savvy... I'm trying to learn though, but got a very long way to go.

Yeah, the comment about oil viscosity was clearly misleading, my bad. I just didn't realize how much oil viscosity drops when it's 90F outside -- never had to deal with engine oil in a summer before. I still don't know what the deal is with the oil level being too high though. I don't have any recollection of overfilling it, but logically that's the only thing that could have happened. I don't do drugs, and I wasn't very drunk lately (again, to the best of my recollection). Adding oil while sleepwalking, maybe?

Who needs a Siberian gulag when there's one just a boatride away from FL? Then again, that place is a summercamp compared to the real thing.

I use straight 40wt in my old cars and my tractor.... Dello 400 of course... We won't be below 70 for a long time....

two problems...
 

leatherman
you need to replace your head gasket.... and you mid as well do the timing
chain....


rurik,
you need a preasure test on your coolant system.. the is a pump they can connect to the lid of the resivoir and pump it up to about 12 pounds...

you probably got a stuck thermostat and a tiny crack in the plastic part of your old radiator....