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Old 11-15-2005, 12:06 AM
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Dieseldiehard
 
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603 engine problem has got me stumped! HELP!

I am perplexed, after all the work done on my blue '87 300D turbo, I need expert help. Pleas read carefully (Brian, this is really an odd one!) If anyone can offer a hint based on experience PLEASE do so. Be warned this is not your everyday 617 engine problem I assure you.

Incidentally my buying this car was the result of member 240 Ed posting a notice the thing was over on the coast a few hours from here and fs $400. I went over and saw it and like a fool bought the thing. It has a decent body! hey I can part it out! all the thoughts of a deranged diesel lover! Like they say the most expensive car is a inexpensive (ie cheap!) car
The story on the car is basically it hadn't run for 18 months and the charity it was intended to be donated to wouldn't accept it non-running then the owner was informed the head needed to be removed for either a head gasket or a head repair. I am certain it had overheated, it had the original radiator and in fact at 260K on the odometer everything except the starter motor looked original. The charity turned it over to a mechanic to do an investigation and he verified the head was indeed cracked. The machine shop they sent the head to said they could repair it. I believe they set out to try but failed. So I paid the mechanics lien and got the car and a clear title.
I ordered a head from Potomac German and discovered someone had used a cold chisel on the PC hold down collars, they neglected to examine it closely. It cost a bunch more to rebuild as a result of that.
Meanwhile we get into the engine and find some scoring on one cylinder indicative of a cracked or worn ring, pulled the pistons, I cleaned the lands and we reringed it.
Now, this danged thing is getting frustrating and I'm getting very mad!

The symptom is the engine starts with minimal pre-glow then it immediately DIES. Like it runs 2.5 or 3 seconds at the first start then the next start immediately thereafter only runs maybe 1 second, then half a second on the third and other subsequent attempts, its like the engine is choked out.
Pressing the accelerator is of no help, the engine is getting shut off somehow, not from the shut off diapragm either, with or without vacuum to it it still dies. Alda disconnected still dies. Disconnecting the connector atop the IP it still dies. New filters (pre filter and secondary filter) plus cleaned the fuel tank screen and replaced the tank fuel feed hose.

Just to calibrate anyone who wonders what else is new, there are new lifters and the head was rebuilt by the same place I have used before (like Metric Motors) it is in perfect condition. I am convinced its nothing related to the block, head pistons etc. New water pump. idler and tensioner shock, alternator 120 A upgrade, new vac pump. New radiator, condensor and fan (I believe it needs a thermo clutch that is all I can find that isn't perfect).
No leaks in the injector lines, new clamps and a new bracket or two.
Newly cleaned and calibrated injectors (by the local Bosch rebuilder, Gus of SF FI). New Glow plugs. New engine module (adjacent to OVP module) Checked OVP module fuse, its ok.
Well, today the expert mechanic who is in charge of getting it running (I put it in an indy's shop for expert help!), well he thought the fuel thermostat might be leaking, so I installed a new one. No luck.
The engine starts in a flash, as soon as I hit the key, the engine has good compressin and runs smooth, no stumbling or nailing or anything that would indicate air in the fuel or a timing problem, it runs good, but it only runs a few secs.

Odd thing, I think it sounds a bit loud, as in noisy exhaust. And there isn't any black smoke out the exhaust like the 603's normally show (all I've ever seen do have a puff of smoke at startup, esp. cold).
What I really really wonder about is the Trap Oxidizer. Yes the car still has that dreaded thing attached and will go the dealer for a Trapextomy as soon as I can drive it there! Could the Trap Oxidizer be involved? Its like starved for air I think.
Now, after a littel side experiment on a good running 603 I am REALLY confused! I have a perfectly running '87 300D for use in comparing the vacuum lines, wiring, etc., a real asset in troubleshooting, right (well, I only have $4000 parts and labor invested in it!) So I figured I would remove the crossover pipe and start the GOOD engine to see if it made the same loud exhaust sounds as the defective car. BAD IDEA! As soon as I removed the crossover and started the engine it immediately ran like crap! It sounded like it was "misfiring" well, like the timing was off or something. It was scarcely running AT ALL, on one or two cylinders maybe. I immediately shut it off and replaced the crossover. It still sounded awful when restarted. I waited a few minutes then started it and it gradually improved until it again made the familiar cackle sound a good 603 is supposed to make at idle.
Whatever happened, it healed itself. I believe that the injectors crudded up. With no air from the turbo (this is at idle mind you!) the computer told the engine to send more fuel and it ran open loop until it was real rich. Does the computer operate that way in the early 603? I though it wasn't that sophisticated.
Has anyone ever run a 603 engine with the cross over disconnected? Why on earth would it crud up like that so quick!??? Why Why Why
I am an apprentice when it comes to the 603 (can you tell by now?)

Am I on to something re: trap oxidizer or turbo plugged up? The turbo blades spin easily and there is no lateral movement worth feeling. It appears that the exhaust isn't allowing exhaust gas to pass. My theory is that the reason the car ran a little the first few minutes is because the trap hadn't plugged yet. Now its plugged and the backpressure is killing the engine by forcing exhaust gas into the air intake. Has anyone ever beedn down this awful road before?
Any comments? thanks in advance!
dieseldiehard in distress!

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Old 11-15-2005, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieseldiehard
Am I on to something re: trap oxidizer or turbo plugged up? The turbo blades spin easily and there is no lateral movement worth feeling. It appears that the exhaust isn't allowing exhaust gas to pass.
With the info provided, you may well be on the right track.

But, I don't think there is any easy way to check it without removing the trap. I don't think you want to do this if the dealer is going to get into it anyway.

I'd have it towed to the dealer and let him remove the trap.

Then try and start it and see what you get.

The symptom certainly points to the possibility of a plugged exhaust. In any case, you must rule it out before you go any further.
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:16 AM
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I'd put money on the trap being plugged up. Of course turbo (or exhaust system further downstream) could be plugged with junk from the trap. I've seen this condition once on a gasser with a catalytic converter that had disintegrated and plugged up the muffler. Thing up and died going down the road, then would restart, run about 10 seconds and die. Dang muffler seemed like it weighed a hundred pounds with all that ceramic from the cat in there.
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:09 AM
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Loosen the bolts to the Trap Oxidizer so that air can escape. Then start the engine. If it runs the Trap Oxidizer is probably plugged up with crud, leaving the engine with no way to breathe.
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  #5  
Old 11-15-2005, 10:52 AM
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There is a bolt in the manifold that can be removed to have a pressure guage hooked up for this very purpose. Look on the FSM and find out what the proper back pressure is. You should be able to get some kind of pressure guage in there to measure back pressure. Maybe just removing the plug would be enough to let it somewhat run.

Thanks
David
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Old 11-15-2005, 11:07 AM
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I will begin this with saying that I don't have any experience with 603's.

However, I saw a post not too long ago that mentioned a linkage problem creating a similar scenario. What had happened was the linkage on the side of the IP was shortened to the point that it was nearly in shut-off at the idle stop. Lengthened the rod and it idled beautifully.

If this helps, great.
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  #7  
Old 11-15-2005, 02:17 PM
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Dieseldiehard
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Blue
I will begin this with saying that I don't have any experience with 603's.

However, I saw a post not too long ago that mentioned a linkage problem creating a similar scenario. What had happened was the linkage on the side of the IP was shortened to the point that it was nearly in shut-off at the idle stop. Lengthened the rod and it idled beautifully.

If this helps, great.
I've had the problem with this linkage I know exactly what you mean.
But this car actually ran, the first day at least it idled beautifully but it sounded loud to me, I am convinced the Trap is plugged.
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Old 11-15-2005, 02:29 PM
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I agree with taking the trap out of the loop. David mentioned the plug on the #1 exhaust runner. Pull it and see if you can get it to idle longer than a few seconds. The turbo feed pipe is very easy to remove. I don't know if the bulk of a trap makes it much more difficult. You should be able to run the engine without the trap. It'll bother your neighbors more than the engine.

Have you checked the exhaust pipes? Maybe some critter moved in while you were working on the head.

If you're concerned about electronic control of the IP, remove the connector into the round thing at the back of the IP. The connector on top is for a sensor. It has no direct influence on the IP.

Sixto
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Old 11-15-2005, 02:32 PM
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What about the IP? If the exhaust isn't clogged I would think about pulling it and having it tested. Maybe I'm jumping the gun on that though.
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Old 11-15-2005, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WANT '71 280SEL
There is a bolt in the manifold that can be removed to have a pressure guage hooked up for this very purpose. Look on the FSM and find out what the proper back pressure is. You should be able to get some kind of pressure guage in there to measure back pressure. Maybe just removing the plug would be enough to let it somewhat run.

Thanks
David
Great minds think alike. I was losing sleep (hey it was a full moon and too bright to get a wink) and this came to mind, I am looking for a rubber plug to fit tightly against the opening, this is where I would install my EGR (when Iget to the intercooler project )
I found a rubber cone shaped piece on the end of my air gun, its removable and I can put that onto a hose that will be attached to a pressure gauge. It fits tightly in the opening at the front of the exhaust manifold. One way to gauge the pressure drop agsint the other car. A very scientific approach.

Or I might swap another trap oxidizer onto the engine, there is one available on a engine that lost oil and the bearings siezed. That is a shotgun approach.

Or I might just do as Brian suggests and tow the thing to the dealer. I hate to think of that but its becoming closer to reality. The shop owner who has been so kind to let me work on the car on his lift (I pay his mechanic for his time troubleshooting and replacing the pistons so he's not losing $$) is losing patience.
This has been and continues to be a saga that has me completely baffled. Why the engine dies just from removing the crossover pipe is beyond my comprehension. I need to fix this so I can get a good night's sleep!
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  #11  
Old 11-15-2005, 02:52 PM
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Dieseldiehard
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatterasguy
What about the IP? If the exhaust isn't clogged I would think about pulling it and having it tested. Maybe I'm jumping the gun on that though.
That is my worst nightmare. I plan on visiting Gus at Pacific Fuel Injection to talk about this though.
As a last resort I have another IP available. This is a lot of work, though!
I'd rather swap the trap oxidizer and/or turbo assy. first
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Old 11-15-2005, 03:03 PM
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Dieseldiehard
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixto
I agree with taking the trap out of the loop. David mentioned the plug on the #1 exhaust runner. Pull it and see if you can get it to idle longer than a few seconds. The turbo feed pipe is very easy to remove. I don't know if the bulk of a trap makes it much more difficult. You should be able to run the engine without the trap. It'll bother your neighbors more than the engine.

Have you checked the exhaust pipes? Maybe some critter moved in while you were working on the head.

If you're concerned about electronic control of the IP, remove the connector into the round thing at the back of the IP. The connector on top is for a sensor. It has no direct influence on the IP.

Sixto
87 300SDL
Thanks, sixto. You care to stop by and see this mess? I'll treat you to a meal if you do.

I am not certian that I can remove the trap, without adding some pipe to allow exhaust gasses over to the turbo the turbo will be dead in the water (er air). With no trap the turbo won't spin and the intake will be strangled, won't it?
Knowing that removing the crossover pipe makes this engine die (on another perfectly good 603 engine) is still baffling me!

I think that WANT '71 280SEL's suggestion of removing the EGR and exhaust connection to it and the plug at the front of the exhaust manifold is the best thing to try at this point.

The fact it idles three seconds, then two, then one second is what is leading me to conclude that exhaust gasses are building up in the intake. If all the intake receives are exhaust gasses then the engine is going to die, no way its going to run under those conditions.
I always remember from experience with a bad turbo on a 617 that "Turbodiesel engines are meant to be fed by the turbo and in turn feed the turbo when they run. Its a symbiotic relationship."
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Old 11-15-2005, 03:47 PM
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I would think it should idle okay with no exhaust going through the turbo. The compressor blades don't seal to the housing, so it can still draw air through them. Likewise for the turbine blades on the exhaust side.
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Old 11-15-2005, 03:51 PM
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Ok, here's something else to think about. The IP shutoff responds not only to vacuum from outside, but to a pressure buildup inside the crankcase. So if the CCV system is plugged it could cause the same symptoms.
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Old 11-15-2005, 06:37 PM
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Worth trying with oil cap off just in case. Little effort required. One test I hope somebody out there can comment on. If exhaust is that restricted my though is there will be almost nill intake suction or certainly sub standard. Perhaps a piece of paper held horizontal a little higher over the intake port inside the air cleaner might indicate if suction is the same as the good comparison car. Lucky you have a comparison car. Even when cranking I suspect the troubled car will develop little suction in comparison to the good one if the exhaust is pretty well plugged I would compare suction cranking with my carb syncronizer because i have it. All you want is a comparison does not have to be scientific. Was thinking a flat plate with a fitting to accept a vaccum gauge might work for a comparison test. Really though reading the back pressure on the exhaust side seems the route to sanity. Again since you have a car for comparison you do not even need a manual. Unfortunatly the bolts in the test hole on the exhaust manifold may be pretty tight if not seized solid. Also liked the ideal of loosening the exaust flange a little to see if any improvement. Since the engine reciently has had major work at least the bolts will not be seized for that. This kind of thing can be pretty frustating. Just random thoughts but might get someone out there thinking about a positive test. There was an english guy a few weeks ago with a much newer model that I suggested he drop his header pipe for the test. Yours sounds worse at least his would still run but with very little power. It proved it was his converter that was plugged.

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