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  #16  
Old 11-18-2005, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iNeon
dieseljim--
I hear the next neon(titled calibre) will be powered by a vw sourced diesel engine in europe. theyll likely never bring it here, but if they do... i know one boy who will be first in line!

why would they use a vw engine whenever dcx has plenty of small diesels kicking around in europe, though?
Back in the mid 80's Crysler did use VW engines on a few of the small cars......Like the Dodge Omni if I remember as the base engine....for a couple years anyway. But that was a gasser not not a diesel.

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  #17  
Old 11-18-2005, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iNeon
what are you talking about? the caddy/old monstrosity i have heard about? ANY car that cannot live a modertely useful life will not sell well. from what i have heard, these cars basically self destructed when they were just starting to get used.

diesel is a much better alternative than fuel cells and such, the same pumps only need a new handle, right?

i do not believe it to be too much to ask to expect a domestic(even GERMAN) built economy car that is not an anemic, all horsepower and no torque joke of an automobile. they all sell one in europe, they have more stringent emissions standards(right?) and the ultra low sulpher fuel already available, the kind that is going to force us to run an additive to keep motoring in our ancient diesels.

i do not see why you and everyone else are so afraid of a more dieselcentric automobile industry. its common knowledge that farmed fuel is where this is all heading! we cannot farm unleaded fuel.

we cant keep hollowing out the planet to suit our petrolium needs! itll collapse eventually.

might i mention that one in 3 fuel stations sells diesel?
That's it. That and the fact that mos diesels kick out a bunch of smoke and the smell is strong makes diesel look dirty. My 99 E300 didn't kick out smoke even when I did an Italian Tune Up till I had it chipped and now it does smoke like a semi diesel. That and the fact that I have to fuel up with disposable gloves is a consideration for many.

Better is a relative term. What is "better" for you might not be the same for me. For instance, I think it is "better" for me that I have 3 dogs and no kids. You might not agree.

I don't see a problem with the low sulfur diesel. Our pumps are oil lubricated not fuel lubricated so we are fine. The older diesels of other makes might have issues. The wife complained that her E300 is not as peppy as the C280 she had. Even after I chipped it, it was just acceptable, not good.

I don't know. I drive the gas electric cars and I am NOT AT ALL impressed. I am not afraid of going to more diesels. I am just saying that the public is not that impressed with diesel at this point. Point is that diesel or gas is good or bad depending on your point of view. From a filling standpoint, I would never get a diesel based on the fact that on the East side of Madison, you could count the number of diesel pumps (not stations) on one hand. I could give you $10 for every diesel pump you see if you give me $1 for every gas pump you see and still make money. Yes, it has to get more popular before they install more diesel pumps and it needs to have more diesel pumps as part of a strategy to get more popular. Which came first? Chicken or the Egg? Not too sure that diesel is the answer for everything. It is an answer to some things but not everything. If the wife wasn't doing long distance driving and I wanted something to play with, I might have stuck with gas all my life. Personally, my diesel hasn't really knocked my socks off to the point that all I want are diesels. For my tow vehicle, I would like a Ford Powerstroke 7.3 in it like a Excursion because of the towing power. For a car, I still like my gassers. Just because we cannot farm unleaded fuel doesn't mean I am going to switch. Again, my priorities are different from yours. Not better necessarily but just different.

We don't know that yet. I don't think it is collapsing or the sky is falling as far as that goes. Nobody knows really when all the oil is done. It is a SWAG as far as I can see based on today's technology and cost.

You might but that is still a far cry from the ease of getting gasoline. I can run into any station, day or night and get gas. You cannot say the same for diesel, can you? Again, if you are going to make sure you have fuel, you are fine. If you are someone that uses the fuel to the bottom of the tank, watch out with diesels since you might not be near a filling station when you really need it.
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  #18  
Old 11-18-2005, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iNeon
i just cannot comprehend whyever vw and mercedes are the only companies that sell a diesel CAR. i have no use for a hulking 3 ton v8 diesel.

i really have no use for a hulking 3500 pound diesel mercedes, either. a 1.6l diesel neon coupe would be fine by me. i wonder if i can source the parts for a conversion? i know they sell a 1.6 diesel in the european market, dammit.
I don't know. You show them the demand and Honda, Toyota will build it. Take a walk down the car lots and tell me how many diesels you see and then tell me why I should build a diesel car. MB and VW are already established in europe. This is uncharted territory in the USA we are talking about. Tell the CEO of Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, etc, etc to take a walk down any car lots and try sell them the idea that "If you build it, they will come". That will be a hard sell.

My 99 C280 saved my skin when I took a hit in the door from someone at 55+ mph. Think I will go to a neon anytime soon? All I had was a stable semi-pubic remi fracture and stable sacreal fracture with a couple of cracked ribs and a little urine bleed. The other car that hit me head on, the girl didn't fare as well. What do you think are the chances you can get me in a Honda Civic and out of my 99 E300?I can earn the money back that you saved from getting a neon but I cannot necessarily earn back the broken body. I will never buy a vehicle that is sub 3000# as a rule. My friend had a Geo Metro that got over 45 mpg in the early 90s. When the wind blows, the cradel will rock. Again, no thanx.
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  #19  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:03 AM
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Heavy is good! Until we have much stronger and lighter alloys and much better restraint and driver protection systems other than them being tiny I will not own a compact when I can afford a car that is 1.5 US tons or more. I will take 27-29 on my Lesabre or 30-32 on my 92 300D with all that weight. Besides with modern transmissions the fuel economy has much more to do with gearing and chipping than it does weight. My Lesabre gets as good or better fuel mileage than my grand am that is lighter and has a smaller displacement engine but my grand am will beat it bad off the line.
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  #20  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselJim
Heavy is good! Until we have much stronger and lighter alloys and much better restraint and driver protection systems other than them being tiny I will not own a compact when I can afford a car that is 1.5 US tons or more. I will take 27-29 on my Lesabre or 30-32 on my 92 300D with all that weight. Besides with modern transmissions the fuel economy has much more to do with gearing and chipping than it does weight. My Lesabre gets as good or better fuel mileage than my grand am that is lighter and has a smaller displacement engine but my grand am will beat it bad off the line.
Strength is one thing but mass does say quite a bit for itself tho. Even if your car holds up you still get bounced around in a light car a lot more than a heavier car.
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  #21  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:34 AM
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agreed! that is why I had the following in my earlier post
much better restraint and driver protection systems
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  #22  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim
Strength is one thing but mass does say quite a bit for itself tho. Even if your car holds up you still get bounced around in a light car a lot more than a heavier car.
It takes more energy to move more weight, so the heavier the car the less likely you will get a "snap" type reaction in an accident, it makes it more of a slow motion acceleration/deceleration when hit because of the amount of energy it takes to shove the car. I experienced this when I was rear ended in my SD by an Infiniti Sedan, it cracked his front bumper in half and gave him a significant bump. All I did was heard the shocks on the bumper absorb the energy, it bumped the SD forward maybe a couple inches, the force was barely enough to make my head bump my headrest about an inch behind my head. He was amazed that I had no damage/wasn't shaken up. He said he'd just pay to fix his car himself if it was ok with me (didn't want to drag insurance into it), so I said "sure!" and took off.

The violent accelerative and decelerative forces a person is subjected too in a small/light car on impact are huge compared to a big heavy vehicle. Probably why there's so many neck injuries etc....
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  #23  
Old 11-18-2005, 10:53 AM
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i have all but stopped driving my neon. not because i feel terribly unsafe in it, but because i like the diesel more.

it is not the same type of car, the same age or anything like that, but the neon actually has guts enough to get around danger that i would just careen into while gritting my teeth in the 240...

i do not wish to drag the dodge into this discussion more than needed, but it is a viable choice to many. 40mpg and 0-60 in 7.6 seconds is nothing to scoff at. all for 16 grand out the door. 135k later and it is still in good shape, running fine and dare i say it... more comfortable than my mercedes.

the reason i even mentioned it is because the technology is there to make these cars diesel powered and available to the masses. if a 2 liter gas engine can get 40mpg, a diesel of the same displacement can get substantially better economy while allowing the driver more grunt power and less power you cannot use because it is outside of the law to do so.

i do not want a volkswagen car, i drove a jetta and did not like it. i prefer an american car, but since it is not offered with what i want(a diesel engine, decent trunk and decent economy) i found my way into a mercedes-benz. not that this is a bad place to be, mind you!

i just would like a decent sized domestic automobile, preferably a chrysler, that could be used if fuel does what it did and will surely do again. it is that simple. i want a car i can use if all that is available is vegetable based fuel. call me chicken little if you will, i just worry.
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  #24  
Old 11-18-2005, 12:09 PM
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Diesel is the alternative fuel of the American Future

Quote:
Originally Posted by iNeon
what are you talking about? the caddy/old monstrosity i have heard about?

ANY car that cannot live a modertely useful life will not sell well. from what i have heard, these cars basically self destructed when they were just starting to get used.

diesel is a much better alternative than fuel cells and such, the same pumps only need a new handle, right?

i live in the southeast-- this isnt michigan.

i do not believe it to be too much to ask to expect a domestic(even GERMAN) built economy car that is not an anemic, all horsepower and no torque joke of an automobile. they all sell one in europe, they have more stringent emissions standards(right?) and the ultra low sulpher fuel already available, the kind that is going to force us to run an additive to keep motoring in our ancient diesels.

i do not see why you and everyone else are so afraid of a more dieselcentric automobile industry. its common knowledge that farmed fuel is where this is all heading! we cannot farm unleaded fuel.

we cant keep hollowing out the planet to suit our petrolium needs! itll collapse eventually.

might i mention that one in 3 fuel stations sells diesel?

There are a lot of technologies being explored to provide suitable alternative fuels to petro, but ALL lack the simple ingredient to success...infrastructure.

Infrastructure is everything, it's the ability to control and dictate regulatory and legislative controls as well as incentives. Infrastructure is the ability to diliver and distribute with the least impact or change required of end users; infrastructure is the ability to provide manufacturers of products that consume your supplies with an alternative that requires the least investment in technology and causes the smallest amount of change in their operations.

For these reasons, the only real alternative or even segway fuel is Diesel, why....because to ask the petro companies to support anything other than the product they currently own will NOT work. They control congress, so no change there either, as long as dino is available, it WILL be used. But now, we have an alternative, a fuel that requires less processing to make, is already produced by these companies, and shares all of the same infrastructure barring some pump handle changes.

ALL auto makers have experience with diesel, even the big three, most cars sold worldwide are diesel and there is no shortage of experience. Diesel does not require retooling other than for making a different engine.

People just buy different cars. The transition in the market will occure naturally as it has in Europe once prices exceed the threashold driving consumer demand.

The biggest benefit to staying with diesel technology is that it provides the greatest hope for a renewable resource in the future..biodiesel which also can share the same infrastructure.

Just my $0.02
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  #25  
Old 11-18-2005, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim
The problem is that diesels are not really popular here. Few people have diesel cars as opposed to gas. The question is who wants to take the risk of introducing a car here that may not sell well. Gas stations here are not really interested in diesel as you can find way more pumps that sell gas than diesel so that becomes an issue. Also you have the gelling problems if it gets really cold. Finally, GM introduced a diesel and it went badly. Hard to convince someone to drop big bucks to introduce a car here that doesn't seem to sell well

I used to agree with this. Then I realized that the VW TDI's are NOT selling cheaply at the dealers or even in the used market. I need to do my homeowkr, but I guess it works like this...


97 Jetta 2.slow gas motor - 83k, KBB.com (yeah yeah...) says $5,775

That same Jetta with the TDI = $6,550

Yeah, I used to think that people didnt like diesels, until I found what TDI's were going for - there **must** be a demand somewhere. I am on a local VW board and the guys that work at the dealer there are always commenting about TDI's flying out the door as soon as they come in. This could be due to the fact that VW isnt shipping enough over here, but even if it is...I belive that people are waking up...

(and VW doesnt need to be the only one selling diesels at MSRP...)

-John
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  #26  
Old 11-18-2005, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel
I used to agree with this. Then I realized that the VW TDI's are NOT selling cheaply at the dealers or even in the used market. I need to do my homeowkr, but I guess it works like this...


97 Jetta 2.slow gas motor - 83k, KBB.com (yeah yeah...) says $5,775

That same Jetta with the TDI = $6,550

Yeah, I used to think that people didnt like diesels, until I found what TDI's were going for - there **must** be a demand somewhere. I am on a local VW board and the guys that work at the dealer there are always commenting about TDI's flying out the door as soon as they come in. This could be due to the fact that VW isnt shipping enough over here, but even if it is...I belive that people are waking up...

(and VW doesnt need to be the only one selling diesels at MSRP...)

-John

I seem to recall that even in trucks, the same thing with a diesel engine is several grand more. that stands to reason that when resold, it will fetch a little more.

I think that people are getting those are into it for what it is. Also the fact there are a few people who would buy bugs and sell them for more than they paid for them says the same thing. I don't think people get them because they are diesel, rather because it is different tho

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