VW Injector similar to MB? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cook · #1 12-25-2005, 08:03 PM

I was reading an interesting thread where it was noticed that the VW Rabbit diesel injectors are very similar to the 1980's MB injectors. Similar pop pressure, shell and nozzell look excatly the same, etc.

Anyone have a way to tell if they ARE different or not? The VW nozzels are much, much less expensive.

If they are different, anyone know what the difference is?

oldnavy · #2 12-25-2005, 09:34 PM

Nozzle size I would guess, also over all size I would think be different. How much fuel does a 1.6L diesel need compared to a 2.4L MB 240D or 3L turbo.

dkveuro · #3 12-25-2005, 09:44 PM

The 130bar injector used in the Rabbit is made in France with Bosch #KCA 30 S 79.....VW #068 130 202 F.
The Mercedes 135bar injectors for non turbo are made in Germany, Bosch #741.
KCA 30 S44.
I don't have a turbo injector on the bench so someone else might chime in with part number........for many years I have bought the Rabbit injector pintal/pintle assembly to use in both because they where readily available.

Under a magnifying glass there seems no difference. Although I had one set of 50 arrive with cross drilled pintal/pintle tips.

.The Quantity of fuel injected is a function of the IP not the injector.

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cook · #4 12-26-2005, 03:32 PM

This is getting very interesting.....

Just to help me understand the different parts of an injector better, is there a good diagram around that would list the major parts of an injector? For example, the tips, pintail, etc.

cook · #5 12-26-2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkveuro

The 130bar injector used in the Rabbit is made in France with Bosch #KCA 30 S 79.....VW #068 130 202 F.
The Mercedes 135bar injectors for non turbo are made in Germany, Bosch #741.
KCA 30 S44.
I don't have a turbo injector on the bench so someone else might chime in with part number........for many years I have bought the Rabbit injector pintal assembly to use in both because they where readily available.

Under a magnifying glass there seems no difference. Although I had one set of 50 arrive with cross drilled pintal tips.

.The Quantity of fuel injected is a function of the IP not the injector.

.

Trying to be sure I understand... Which two cars do you use the Rabbit pintal in? I'm hoping its turbo and non-turbo MB.

dkveuro · #6 12-26-2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cook

Trying to be sure I understand... Which two cars do you use the Rabbit pintal in? I'm hoping its turbo and non-turbo MB.

VW, Audi, Mercedes and Volvo.

http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/SAE/vwtdsae.shtml

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rs899 · #7 12-26-2005, 08:40 PM

DKVEURO-

So, is it your opinion that a VW nozzle is close enough to use in a 240D or 300D non-turbo? At least better than using some wretched original injector with 200k miles on it? These are about a third the price of a MBZ nozzle...

Rick

dkveuro · #8 12-27-2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rs899

DKVEURO-
So, is it your opinion that a VW nozzle is close enough to use in a 240D or 300D non-turbo? At least better than using some wretched original injector with 200k miles on it? These are about a third the price of a MBZ nozzle...
Rick

Your cryptic reply will be ignored. If you wish for diffinitive information on this ...ask and you MAY recieve

In the meantime, FYI. The prechamber on the MB and VW are different. One is a 'swirl' type the other is a 'diffuser' type.
.

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Stevo · #9 12-27-2005, 12:43 PM

"cryptic reply"

Sounds pretty streight forward to me.

dkveuro · #10 12-27-2005, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevo

"cryptic reply"...Sounds pretty streight forward to me.

And your point would be ?

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Stevo · #11 12-27-2005, 08:33 PM

"Sounds pretty streight forward to me."
"And your point would be ?"

Hummm, dont know how to make it any clearer... his question just doesnt sound "cryptic " to me, ...of course I dont know the answer to it either. That report is all one would would ever need to know about VW diesels, very nice.

dkveuro · #12 12-28-2005, 12:52 AM

Okay...let me tell you how I read his post...He said ....
So, is it your opinion that a VW nozzle is close enough to use in a 240D or 300D non-turbo? At least better than using some wretched original injector with 200k miles on it?"

My take on that is, I'm 'cheaping out' for the sake of it. This is not something I do. My customers recieve my latest and best work along with parts that have proved durable and functional.

I did not instal a 'close enough' injector pintle because I could...I inspected a batch of injectors both German and French, both Bosch and Beru. The result being that, with a 70X lupe I could make out no difference between the two pintles.

I also used the 'cheap' pintle in my own 1984 300D turbo motor which I had fully rebuilt with pistons/valves etc....not cheap.....to see if there was any measurable difference of any kind, performance, power, idle quality, etc etc.

I was sure there had to be a difference, because the VW engine used a 'swirl' type pre-chamber whereas the Mercedes used a 'diffuser' type with a longer glow plug.

Having found no difference, I then set up customer injectors with VW pintles at 134bar instead of the 130bar the pintle for VW was designed to operate at.

There has been no noise/smoke/run issues so far and some engines are now over 200,000 miles.

So...I take exception to someone impuning my integrity who does not know me..
If this is a mistake on my part ..I am sorry. Please accept my applogies.

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Stevo · #13 12-28-2005, 11:33 AM

dkveuro

Ah..I didnt read that into his post, sorry..It just sounded like he was interested in finding out about injectors not insulting you or you were doing the pintle swap to cheat anyone.

The last time I bought nozzles for a 616 injector they were about $20 ea, you dont buy the pintle alone? right

dkveuro · #14 12-28-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevo

dkveuro

Ah..I didnt read that into his post, sorry..It just sounded like he was interested in finding out about injectors not insulting you or you were doing the pintle swap to cheat anyone.

The last time I bought nozzles for a 616 injector they were about $20 ea, you dont buy the pintle alone? right

Pintle assembly (Nozzel.) is what I buy. This is the working part of the injector. I have dozens of used injector bodies.
My wholesale supply house is quoting me $10.24 for the VW pintle and around $48.00 for the Mercedes. Unfortunately Bosch is on galactic back order...last shipment for March of 2005, never arrived !

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Stevo · #15 12-28-2005, 02:21 PM

"$48.00 for the Mercedes"

Yikes...It wasnt more than a couple years ago I bought em from "World" for $20, maybe $25

"The 130bar injector used in the Rabbit is made in France with Bosch #KCA 30 S 79.....VW #068 130 202 F.
The Mercedes 135bar injectors for non turbo are made in Germany, Bosch #741.
KCA 30 S44."

So the Rabbit, Bosch, injectors that would do for the Non turbo MB is the Bosch part # 741/KCA 30 S44?, Thanks, that would save a considerable chunk of $