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  #1  
Old 02-25-2006, 09:15 PM
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Turbo on an NA question

Not MB but still diesel. I've been looking for a different RV and have come across a Bluebird with a 3208. It's an 82 originally with a CAT 3208 NA. Owner installed an aftermarket turbo in 84. ($11k for the turbo and a retarder) Engine lasted until 92 and 75k miles when it put a rod thru the block. Caterpillar installed a reman engine with a written warning on the receipt that if owner reinstalled the turbo, no damage caused by the turbo would be warranted. It's 25k later and it's running fine. It has a pyrometer and boost gauge. When it drove it today, it showed no boost and I was happy with its performance. I also couldn't feel the turbo kick in.
Price is good so I'm not opposed to repowering at some point, but I'm thinking that as long as the boost pressure is kept very low, keeping the turbo on the engine is unlikely to cause significant damage. I couldn't see the pyrometer clearly but I don't think it showed above 6 or 700 degrees, probably lower.

What are everyone's thoughts?

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Last edited by kerry; 02-25-2006 at 09:22 PM.
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  #2  
Old 02-25-2006, 09:44 PM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry edwards
It has a pyrometer and boost gauge. When it drove it today, it showed no boost and I was happy with its performance. I also couldn't feel the turbo kick in.
Was the turbo reinstalled, even after the warning? No boost and no fuel kick-in sounds like it's not.

Since you are here in Denver, I don't see anything wrong with keeping low boost (around 5psi) just to give it an edge over the altitude.

I'm not a fan of V8 diesels, but the Cat 3208's are an exception.


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  #3  
Old 02-25-2006, 10:16 PM
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Sorry, I wasn't clear. The turbo was reinstalled. So, either the boost gauge wasn't working and I wasn't sensitive enough to feel the turbo kick in on a vehicle this large, or the wastgate was stuck open. I was thinking just like you, why not just a few pounds to compensate for the altitude? I don't see what harm it could do.
I'm assuming the original owner did not replace the original NA with a factory turbo engine when the NA bit the dust, because it was covered under warranty.

It looks like that, an 82 FC 35. FC=Forward Control= engine in front. Suprisingly very quiet.
__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #4  
Old 02-25-2006, 10:41 PM
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The picture I see is an '86 FC35, which would have the 250HP 3208Na "intercity" engine. It also has the Jacobs EL driveline retarder and taller gearing (4.89 vs the Na's 5.29:1).

The '82 is an Na engine, big differences are the oil sprays on the pistons for cooling, different valves, a roller cam/lifters, different injection pump and nozzles, the turbo of course (which if factory is mounted on top of the block just ahead of the bellhousing), larger oil cooler, and a different transmission tune & torque converter.

I don't see how the engine could have been covered by warranty, a one-year warranty on an '82 doesn't get you to an engine failure in '92.

The 250hp 3208Ta in my 'Birds have given me around 15psi of boost and a peak pyrometer/EGT of 1150F. You never feel the boost, not in a 31,000lb coach. You can't hear it either, except faintly if you lose your exhaust system, don't ask. In the 300hp aftercooled version you hear and feel the turbo.

A very limited boost would probably not shorten the life of an Na engine too much, just to compensate for altitude, but on an '82 it so badly needs decent boost that I suspect it has been run hard, and I would run the other way.

The '82 is one year of BB/FC that I don't recommend to anyone, unless you're stealing it (under $16k for a decent one). Go to the '83 and get the turbo engine and driveline retarder, you'll need it, or find an affordable '87-up with the aftercooled engine and ZF transmission if you spend a lot of time in mountains.

The 3208 is a good engine mostly, really won't wear out in motorhome service, but are frequently killed by bad cooling-system maintenance.

- Jeff Miller
190DT
and several BlueBird Wanderlodge coaches
www.wanderlodge.net
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  #5  
Old 02-25-2006, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babymog
The picture I see is an '86 FC35, which would have the 250HP 3208Na "intercity" engine. It also has the Jacobs EL driveline retarder and taller gearing (4.89 vs the Na's 5.29:1).

The '82 is an Na engine, big differences are the oil sprays on the pistons for cooling, different valves, a roller cam/lifters, different injection pump and nozzles, the turbo of course (which if factory is mounted on top of the block just ahead of the bellhousing), larger oil cooler, and a different transmission tune & torque converter.

I don't see how the engine could have been covered by warranty, a one-year warranty on an '82 doesn't get you to an engine failure in '92.

The 250hp 3208Ta in my 'Birds have given me around 15psi of boost and a peak pyrometer/EGT of 1150F. You never feel the boost, not in a 31,000lb coach. You can't hear it either, except faintly if you lose your exhaust system, don't ask. In the 300hp aftercooled version you hear and feel the turbo.

A very limited boost would probably not shorten the life of an Na engine too much, just to compensate for altitude, but on an '82 it so badly needs decent boost that I suspect it has been run hard, and I would run the other way.

The '82 is one year of BB/FC that I don't recommend to anyone, unless you're stealing it (under $16k for a decent one). Go to the '83 and get the turbo engine and driveline retarder, you'll need it, or find an affordable '87-up with the aftercooled engine and ZF transmission if you spend a lot of time in mountains.

The 3208 is a good engine mostly, really won't wear out in motorhome service, but are frequently killed by bad cooling-system maintenance.

- Jeff Miller
190DT
and several BlueBird Wanderlodge coaches
www.wanderlodge.net

We've been discussing this over at the Wanderlodge forum. This 82 seems to have been very well cared for and it has the retarder on it which makes it pretty attractive in CO. The price is not that good but getting close. Making me think that eventually repowering with a 250 or 300 hp 3208 is not out of the question. But all but about 4000 miles were put on it by the original owner, and he got 75k out of the original engine with the aftermarket turbo so he couldn't have been beating it too hard (I think).
By the way, it seemed faster than my wife's 300dNA.
It also has the swing out radiator, which I like. I think you told me you thought the gearing was also changed.
__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Last edited by kerry; 02-25-2006 at 10:55 PM.
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  #6  
Old 02-25-2006, 11:20 PM
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There's a point of diminishing returns on these older beasts. An '82 is only worth what an '82 is worth, one who knows BBs will regard an '82 as a pre-turbo coach no matter what you put in the doghouse.

Putting a 300hp engine in will be difficult, no room for the aftercooler and plumbing, and the transmission is rated for 250hp max, ... just for starters.

Buy a coach with a powertrain that will work for you, when you're ready to move up the prices of '88s and '89s will have dropped, you can buy a nice '88 FC with the ATAAC engine and appropriate ZF overdrive transmission. My '88 would run 75mph at 2050rpm, you could hear the trip odometer tick it was so quiet (true story, the ticking drove my wife nuts). That was re-geared from the original 5.29:1 to 4.11:1 and 12R tires though, ... 5" straight-through exhaust, turbo and exhaust blanketed and wrapped, doghouse in quilted lead/fiberglass insulation, underfloor too, nice driver. Would run 75mph in 4th, tire's speed limit so I never pushed it faster in 5th (especially with 13,200# on the steer axle). No comparison between an '82 and even an '84, or an '86 and an '88-'89.

- Jeff Miller
190DT
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  #7  
Old 02-26-2006, 09:39 AM
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What surprised me when I drove it was how satisfied I was with its performance. I'd seen many BB with NA's converted to turbos and I concluded the NA must be a real dog. To the contrary, I thought it performed quite satisfactory, even at a mile high. I've been driving my 71 Travco with a 413 gas for about 7 years with no complaints and I thought the BB performed better. I guess I must have low expectations.
__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #8  
Old 02-26-2006, 11:10 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
dieselarchitect
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lafayette Indiana
Posts: 38,613
i have a weak spot

for those old travcos because of the shape, but dont you have to tow an auxiliary tank to keep from running out of fuel?

tom w
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #9  
Old 02-26-2006, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth
for those old travcos because of the shape, but dont you have to tow an auxiliary tank to keep from running out of fuel?

tom w
It certainly catches everyone's eye. It holds 100 gallons of fuel, but surprisingly I can get 9 mpg on a good day and 7.5 mpg when towing. It's the 220 model (22 ft long) so it's become too small for us. I'll be sad to see it go. MichiganDon who posts here has retrofitted a Cummins 5.9 to his Travco. Hard to imagine a better combination of motorhome design and mechanical quality.
__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #10  
Old 02-26-2006, 11:24 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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Location: Lafayette Indiana
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my favorite

machinist and i have discussed that swap several times.

hard to beat the cummins. it is a lot heavier than the 440 though so that might be a thought to consider.

personally i like the flexibility of a truck and trailer separate. (right now for the last month i have been driving my truck daily while doing some work on my 350sdl).

and if you sell your travco, for the money it will cost to do the conversion you prob can get a good used dodge truck and an older airstream.

which may be an easier sell when you get tired of them.

tom w
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #11  
Old 02-26-2006, 12:26 PM
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Used Dodge truck pulling a toaster. Been there, done that, driving a Wanderlodge is so much different I wouldn't know where to start explaining it. Kind of like color, you have to see it to describe it.

We've always pulled a car/truck behind our Wanderlodges, don't even know it's there, have also pulled our 27' enclosed with car and toys inside, again hard to tell it's there. Would I ever pull a TT behind a car/truck/van again, no interest at all in being blown around by trucks, I prefer to blow them around. I guess it's the difference between camping and traveling, you use the coach any time anywhere, the trailer you have to walk outside to use. Consider also the MH carrying 265gallons of diesel, at 8mpg that's around 2000miles useable range, 120gallons of freshwater, 50a@220vac of diesel generator, ... the list goes on and having hot nachos from the convection/microwave while rolling down the freeway is pretty sweet. Pull over for the night and everyone's already in bed, just walk back to your already warm (or cool) bed and catch some Zs, get up in the morning to continuously diesel-heated water, ...

No, I'll leave the trailers to the park-types. I like driving.

- Jeff Miller
190DT
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  #12  
Old 02-26-2006, 04:05 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
dieselarchitect
 
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Location: Lafayette Indiana
Posts: 38,613
glad you

are happy with your choice.

with the right hitch setup she will track very excellent. even in a 30 mph crosswind. passing semis.

also i use my truck all the time to pull my utility trailer, and am presently using just to drive back and forth to work...can't do that with your bluebird.

but...

you have given me things to think about.

tom w
__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #13  
Old 02-26-2006, 04:14 PM
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I concur with Jeff. We got our first motorhome shortly after our daughter was born. We found travelling with a child was much easier in a motorhome. We've even 'camped' on the street in downtown Toronto in our motorhome. Not quite as inconspicuous with a trailer.
I've only driven a Wanderlodge about 8 miles yesterday, but I was pleasantly surprised by the experience. Very comfortable and quiet despite the fact I was sitting next to a Cat diesel. Some features are clearly overkill. It has an altimeter like an airplane. I guess it helps avoid running into the high mountains around here.

I'm going to go back and get a closer look at the turbo installation before I make my final decision. I'll also take a run at I-70 west of town to see how it pulls the big hills.
__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #14  
Old 02-26-2006, 04:51 PM
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In the marine world cat 3208's are known as "throw away" engines. Mostly their luke warm rep came from the later ones that were turbo charged and putting out about 350-430 depending on the model. The original NA versons seem to last a very long time. I'd remove the turbo and keep it completly stock.

I have seen several in trawlers with a few thousand hours on them and they were doing fine, NA of course.


Nice motorhome btw, very cool looking!!!
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  #15  
Old 02-26-2006, 05:29 PM
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I agree that the throw-away rep came partly from the over-tuned models. The road engines were only rated as high as 300hp, very reliable. Marine versions went to 435hp (warrantied), I've been told that the ones over 365hp are known for tearing themselves up on the water, the lower hp ones more reliable. One thing that sold them regardless is the propensity for boaters to keep the engine room clean, the most popular competition being the much stronger-heavier Detroit 92-series, which had a bad habit of slobbering all over the engine room even with Airseps. The down-side of the two-stroke Detroit diesels.

The other reason that the 3208 is known as a "throw-away" is that it is a dry-sleeve engine. In the DD engines for example, you have a "wet-sleeve" which is a cylinder which is pressed into place and surrounded by water. Replacing cylinder packs / sleeves is reasonably simple and economical in wet-sleeve engines where the 3208 would need to be bored out to install the new cylinder, and the engines aren't worth repairing many times (more labor). Usually unless the DD block is stretched it can be re-sleeved. This nickname had little to do with the life expectancy of the 10.4liter 3208 diesel, more with its repairability vs wet-sleeve engines.

On the upside, a dry-sleeve engine is less susceptible to cavitation pitting, ...

They'll easily last 350k before an "in-frame" in a MH happlication if properly maintained, roll in a new set of bearings at ~120k for good PM, my (first one) 190,000mile 3208 idled over 100psi of oil pressure hot and used almost no oil, it'll do the job.

My first one was an Na, we got around 35hp at the wheels (chassis dyno) by installing nozzles with a lower opening pressure, new IP cam with a higher injection rate, max. advance increased to 12.5degrees (mechanical), increasing intake airflow, and turning up the full-load point at the IP. Good engines.

- Jeff Miller
190DT


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatterasguy
In the marine world cat 3208's are known as "throw away" engines. Mostly their luke warm rep came from the later ones that were turbo charged and putting out about 350-430 depending on the model. The original NA versons seem to last a very long time. I'd remove the turbo and keep it completly stock.

I have seen several in trawlers with a few thousand hours on them and they were doing fine, NA of course.


Nice motorhome btw, very cool looking!!!

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