That explains so very, very much.

__________________
1983 300D
1978 BMW R80/7
1997 Jeep TJ

1)I gave a few links already I'll let you Google up more. If you go to the Photo bucket paper by R. Diesel (2) http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e93/pmari/ R.Diesel not only talks about ground nut oil, animal fats and other renewable fuel sources. He also talks about how his engine has increased the damand of liquid fuels that were once unusable ((you'll have to research distillation)). He boasts about how the Diesel motor has brought the liquid fuel market to new hights and how transportation and industry is going to be dependent on it.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blasphalt.htm
The first road use of asphalt occurred in 1824, when asphalt blocks were placed on the Champs-Élysées in Paris. As you can see, distillation of crude and coal has been going on for a long time. http://www.sjgs.com/history.html

I think you'll also find it interesting that Herr Diesel also experimented with a solar motor

My hand is out the whole time, I know it can be painful to learn the truth is not completely true. But in this case there is no shame in the truth with genius like R.Diesel's.

Also, please debate the chronologically challenged in pm's.

__________________
1999 E300DT (131,800) 154,000 Black on Black SOLD

2006 CLK 500 coupe Capri Blue on Grey (zoom,zoom)
47,000mi

04 VW TDI Passat 80,000mi
(Techno)

How to eliminate oil dependency through market-driven approaches.
“We could cut oil use in half by 2025, and by 2040, oil use could be zero,”
The Sound of Diesel Speed
Ode to MB

Would you guys please be nice enough to delete all of your unrelevent personal posts. This is an ongoing story, check the dates of the original posts.

I was just re reading some of this post and caught the Corn Pops = animal feed joke.

Good one !

Thank You
RichC

__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

.

Hello Pmari

I found the photobook link.
Absolutly loved the intro the the book by Dr. Diesel.

Read the stuff on distilling crude also.
I had no idea it was that old.
Gotta be carefull what I assume !

Thanks
Have Fun
RichC


.

__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

Thanks for posting these great links!

Can you imaging Castor oil or FISH oil... What a smell that might make??? Of course some of us are using fish fry oil with out much damage to the nostrils.

__________________
NC Benz
Fuquay-Varina, NC
1979 300D
1983 300D Turbo 260,000 Miles
1984 300D Turbo 345,000 Miles (sons car)
OBK #31
1998 Ford Expedition 5.4l (fer Haulin'!) 145,000
1973 19' SeaRay with 115 Mercury TOWER OF POWER!
Club Car Golf Cart 36V
Ex toys:
1967 Mustang 289 (First Car)
Fiat 124TC
1975 Honda CVCC
1980 Audi 5000 Turbo

I feel like I'm parashooting into D-Day by posting on this thread. But here i go...

The start of this thread had to do with E95 being used in a diesel engine... the first question we should ask our selfs is, "will this work in our engines?"

and to answer that you need to talk to the Mercedes engineering staff that built the thing back in 1970 what ever...

now we know that our engines will run on just about anything. but is it good for the engine?

I'm not an expert, and I'm not a Mercedes engineer, but i can tell you that changing the fuel will change how the engine wares. for example. if you own a 1969 Chavelle then you know that your car runs just fine on 91 octane gasoline, but you also know that your car was designed to run on 95 or higher octane fuel with lead in it. I don't want to talk about the finer points of older gasoline engines, but you can have the head re-machined and hardened vale seats installed to counteract the fact that the fuel has no lead, and you can buy octane booster to raise the octane.

the reason i bring this up is, when ever you are going to change the fuel in the engine you need to change the desgine of the engine. even if it is slight modifications for slight changes in the fuel.

so to get back to the original question, "will e95 run in out engines?"

my answer:
maybe, but is it best for the engine?

my answer to all the alternative fuels:
its your car to design, but until I'm an engineer, I'll just put #2 in it.

__________________

To all you guys arguing about whether or not you should use peanut oil or coal dust or whatever Rudy Diesel designed his diesel to run.....

It's not what Mercedes designed THEIR diesels to run.
What do they recommend? D2, plain and simple.
I run biodiesel because it possesses the same basic properties as D2, and then some.
I would never dream of running SVO/WVO in any of my cars. The engines are simply not designed to handle it.

__________________
99 E300 TD -- sold
01 540i 6 spd

I'd say no to ethanol in diesel engines as well.

I'm sure this will make RichC happy, here is the link to Cummins' response to the use of ethanol as a fuel: http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/pubs/cummins-diesohol.pdf


Cummins
2 Caribbean Drive
Scoresby, 3179
Victoria, Australia
Cummins (ABN: 42 006 332 949)
Phone: (03) 9765 3222 Facsimilie: (03) 9765 3160

8 July 2004
Mr G Marshall
Director

Clean Fuels and Vehicles Section
Department of Environment and Heritage
GPO Box 787
Canberra ACT 2601

Dear Sir,
Diesohol – Comments to Discussion Paper May 2004

Cummins primary concern is the low flash point of diesohol and hence the safety issue. The low flash point of 11 – 13 deg C requires handling techniques that are not normally associated with diesel fuel. The addition of methanol or ethanol would change automotive diesel from an intrinsically safe product to a potentially dangerous one. Cummins strongly recommends against the use of diesohol and specifically recommends that the FSCC regulates against the use of diesohol.
Yours sincerely,
CUMMINS
JOHN BORTOLUSSI
Chief Technical Officer
Attachment:
Cummins Service Bulletin on Alcohol in Diesel
Cc:
Terry Pennington Truck Industry Council

Page 2
FIELD ANNOUNCEMENT – AUGUST 30, 2001
Subject: Cummins Position on the use of Ethanol blended Diesel Fuel Background
Alcohol is considered a renewable energy source, and some fuel suppliers blend up to 15% alcohol in diesel fuel to form Oxy-diesel or E diesel. Ethanol blended diesel consists typically of a mixture of Number 2 diesel (80%), anhydrous denatured alcohol (7 to 15%), and a blending additive with cetane improver (5% max). There are two common product names in the market: “E diesel” and “Oxy diesel”. There are several companies that are in the business of blending additive packages for use with ethanol diesel fuels. The fuel is being promoted by the corn growers and ethanol producers, additive manufacturers, some state governments, and the RFA (Renewable Fuels Association). E diesel is likely to remain an experimental fuel until flammability concerns and health effects testing are addressed, and the economic infrastructure developed. Until the safety and other issues outlined in this document are resolved, use of E diesel or other alcohol/diesel blends should not be used in Cummins products.

Fuel Characteristics
The flash point for E diesel is reduced to 50°F vs 126°F for Number 2 diesel, making it more dangerous to handle and store than Number 2 diesel. A lower flammability level presents a significant risk of a fuel tank fire or explosion during fueling. Vapors in the fuel tank containing a mixture of ethanol with diesel will readily burn under conditions where diesel vapors alone will not combust.

For Safety reasons, Cummins recommends against the use of alcohol fuel blends. Cummins Bulletin Fuel for Cummins Engines 3379001 provides the following warning.
WARNING: UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD ALCOHOL BE USED TO
DILUTE DIESEL FUEL. THIS PRACTICE CREATES AN EXTREME FIRE HAZARD
AND UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, AN EXPLOSIVE HAZARD.

E diesel has a lower energy content; approximately 92% of Number 2 diesel fuel, and is therefore a less efficient fuel. Reduced cetane levels of E diesel can be addressed with cetane additives to maintain acceptable combustion characteristics. Without cetane improvement additives, alcohol blended diesel fuel would be expected to have poor ignition quality, poor start-up, and detonation problems. The blending of ethanol and alcohol in diesel fuel also lowers the cloud point and pour point of the fuel.
Alcohol is a reactive chemical and can cause fuel system corrosion. Alcohol also will deteriorate and affect the performance of gasket and/or seal materials. There are confirmed accounts of ISB engine fuel pump failures due to the effects of alcohol induced de-lamination of an internal timing sensor component. Robert Bosch, the fuel pump manufacturer prohibits alcohol blended fuel in the VP44 fuel pump on the ISB/QSB Cummins engine.

Emissions
Ethanol diesel blended fuel has demonstrated a reduction in particulate emissions, which can be on the order of 20% to 30%. However, emissions of Carbon Monoxide (CO) and Hydrocarbon (HC) can increase, thus requiring an oxidation catalyst. NOx may or may not be affected depending on engine design. Aldehyde emissions are expected to increase with alcohol blended diesel fuel.

Page 3
A comprehensive health and environmental effects study on this fuel has not been completed to date. This is an EPA requirement for on-road fuels and an exemption is necessary for on-road testing.

Performance and Durability Results
A variety of engines have been tested with E diesel, including a Cummins ISB used in the Dodge Ram pick-up. A dyno endurance test of that engine with a 15% ethanol blend experience fuel system problems. The fuel pump, a Robert Bosch VP44, failed an internal timing sensor (IAT) due to delamination of the foil caused by the presence of alcohol. Bosch® has stated that they do not approve the use of ethanol blends in any of their fuel systems, including the VP44 and the new Common Rail equipment. Increased injector wear was also noticed during the above test. Results of tests with a 10% ethanol blend showed an 8% power loss and a 5% increase in fuel consumption.

Fuel System, Vehicle Issues, and Storage
The ethanol in the fuel blend will remove deposits from fuel tanks and lines causing filter plugging during initial testing. The presence of alcohol may also affect the performance of elastomers (seals, gaskets, etc.). With ethanol blended fuel, the fuel filter is not capable of stripping water in the system, leading to an increased risk of fuel pump and system corrosion. Since E diesel is more volatile, it is more likely that the vehicle will experience pump and injector cavitation and hot fuel re-start problems. A typical low pressure system with warm fuel returning to the vehicle tank is likely to require modification for flammability and evaporation. The reduced energy content of E diesel may require an idle governor change to prevent stalling in high temperatures and extreme conditions. Likely fuel handling and storage issues will include: water absorption, fuel stability, flammability and energy loss through evaporation of alcohol.

Warranty and the Use of Ethanol Blended Diesel in Cummins Engines
Cummins recommends against the use of ethanol blended diesel fuels due to safety reasons. Cummins is not in a position to evaluate the many variations in fuels or other additives, and their long-term effects on performance, durability or emissions compliance of Cummins products. The use of E diesel or Oxy diesel fuel does not affect Cummins Material and Workmanship warranty. Failures caused by the use of of E diesel, Oxy diesel, or other fuel additives are not defects of workmanship and/or material as supplied by Cummins, Inc and can not be compensated under the Cummins' warranty. Robert Bosch prohibits the use of alcohol blended fuel in any of its fuel systems, and will deny warranty coverage on all failures. The Dodge Cummins owner’s manual warns against blending alcohol and diesel fuel

Cummins brings up some very valid points but it is possible that a properly formulated Diesenol can address most of the issues. The low flash point would be the hardest one to eliminate but it is still far safer than gasoline.

If the fuel has the proper viscosity for good atomization, is not corrosive to the materials in the fuel system, lubricates adequately, combusts cleanly, is low ash and has a high enough cetane rating, I don't see why it couldn't be used no matter what it is made of.

__________________
Ron Schroeder
'85 300 Turbo Diesel 2 tank WVO
'83 300 Turbo Diesel 2 tank WVO
Some former WVO vehicles since ~1980:
'83 Mercedes 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 ISUZU Pup
'70 SAAB 99 with Kubota diesel
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota diesel
'86 Golf
Several diesel generators
All with 2 tank WVO conversion
LI NY

.

Adding Ethanol to Diesel.

First time I had heard of that.

Seems like that would kill the lubricating properties of diesel.

Bosch doesn't like it in is VP44 injector pump.
I think that is one of the rotary pumps isn't it ?

Rotary pumps do not seem to hold up as well as the in-line ones.
At least the ones I have messed with.

And I wonder what delaminated in the pump?
And exactly what they mean by delamination of the foil ?

Thanks for the post.
Have Fun Everyone
RichC.

__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

But how do we know, untill somebody tries ?

Thank You
RichC

__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

Then by all means, put your engine at risk and give it a try. Let us know if you reach a million miles.

.

I don't have the money for any more projects.

I think I want to stick with the straight waste vegetable oil now.

I have not been keeping track of miles.
I found out too late the odometer is not working right.

But I do have about 1 year and 3 months of normal daily driving on the one car.
And about 5 months on the other.

I think both cars had well over 200,000 when we purchased them.

I will defiantly post anything that goes wrong with the cars.
So, no news is good news from me.

Will you post if your car has problems from the things you have done to it ?
Like the water/methanol injection, VNT turbo, intercooler ?
Or if the transmission, differential, or cv axles go out because of these ?

Thank You
Have Fun
RichC

__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

I keep my threads regularly updated. Click on the links and you can read them.