Insult to injury: insufficient title for transfer on my eBay SDL - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

thelazzarusman · #1 06-09-2006, 03:58 PM

Those of you around several months ago will remember that I purchased a 300SDL on eBay with the cracked head syndrome. All is well now mechnically, so I went today to my local DMV to retitle the vehicle, pay my taxes, register, etc.

The clerk tells me that since I have no bill of sale (the b*stard seller only sent me a title, with someone else's name on it), he can't issue a title or registration. I have to make a civil court date to have a judge declare the vehicle my property. Naturally, I have ample proof of the purchase--and the ensuing conflict and resolution through auction insurance--but I fear that a court date could easily be a 6-month proposition. And who knows what the judge might find to nitpick about.

Does anyone have advice on how to pursue this situation, or if there are alternatives to court? I seriously doubt the dealer would give me the time of day, especially since I now have an insurance company attempting to collect $4k from them. Perhaps I could contact the individuals who sold the vehicle to the dealer and get them to vouch for me? After all, it's their names on the title.

All suggestions and comments welcome,

DL

ConnClark · #2 06-09-2006, 04:04 PM

Ouch!!

as for advice......

Have you tried putting Nair in the sellers shampoo?

I don't think the courts will take 6 months though. (At least it wouldn't where I live)

#3 06-09-2006, 04:07 PM

If this fellow is a dealer and sold you a car with a open title in someone else's name he could be shut down by his local dmv. There could be leins or judgements on the car in the state the title is from. I would keep a copy of the ePray auction in the car, in case anyone comes a knocking. I would be real carefull and maybe have your insurance company and bank run the the vin to get a feel for what is going on. Good luck.

Pete Burton · #4 06-09-2006, 04:09 PM

Yeah, I have a suggestion. Make up a bill of sale yourself. Sign the seller's name of whatever else they want. I've dealt with plenty of unresolvable, Catch-22 registration issues over the years. If you think FL is tough, don't ever try CT!

thelazzarusman · #5 06-09-2006, 04:39 PM

but Dad's a judge and if I got caught, I shudder to think what might happen. The straight and narrow isn't always my preferred path, but with something this--shall we say--"public," I hesitate to deviate from it.

DL

TheDon · #6 06-09-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Burton

Yeah, I have a suggestion. Make up a bill of sale yourself. Sign the seller's name of whatever else they want. I've dealt with plenty of unresolvable, Catch-22 registration issues over the years. If you think FL is tough, don't ever try CT!

we had to do that with my 300D since to register it . it would of cost 500$ because how florida does it by weight and sales tax.. so we modified it making 2500 look like 250

, i talked to the p/o about it and she said do it

hey lazz you coming to the gtg

leathermang · #7 06-09-2006, 05:43 PM

"The clerk tells me that since I have no bill of sale (the b*stard seller only sent me a title, with someone else's name on it), he can't issue a title or registration. I have to make a civil court date to have a judge declare the vehicle my property. Naturally, I have ample proof of the purchase--and the ensuing conflict and resolution through auction insurance--but I fear that a court date could easily be a 6-month proposition. And who knows what the judge might find to nitpick about."

I think you should check closely at the CourtHouse... what you have described is SOP most places... and often they have a walk in day once a month or more often those these types of cases.... So it may not be a matter of getting on the Docket months away....... they understand that people need their cars....or at least a lot of Counties understand that...

thorsen · #8 06-09-2006, 05:49 PM

I had a simialr situation with an MGB back in Mississippi about 12 years ago. The title I got with the car belonged to a dead man and the guy who sold it never had it registered in his name.

I paid $50 to a title insurance company and they issued me a new title.

87tdwagen · #9 06-09-2006, 06:06 PM

unfortunately outside of the court option, and that still is not guaranteed that it will bode in your favor, you need a bill of sale to title the vehicle in FL. Remarkably the title itself is not REQUIRED and could be replaced by a valid registration card with the sellers name on it.

Has the title transfer section of the original title been filled out with the ebay sellers info? If not, then even a BOS from the ebay guy won't help because your records show the PO as the titled owner, not the ebay guy. If this section is not filled out on the original title, then you COULD (gray area legally) fill it out with your name and info and (sign) it on behalf of the PO, you can also download a standard FL BOS from the myflorida.com DOT pages and do the same on that. Then you'll have no issues with FL DMV.

I know this sounds borderline but FL is only tough when it comes to paperwork, so the rest of it will be a breeze, they never check after all the dotted i's and crossed T's requirement is met...so long as it is not stollen.

Have you done a Carfax to make sure it was not reported stollen?

One additional point that may be worth investigating is whether your e-bay WON printout could be used as a substitue BOS, you may want to check with your local DMV.

Best of luck
EDIT Here's the link to FLDOT for more info and docs: http://www.hsmv.state.fl.us/dmv/faqmotor.html

d.delano · #10 06-09-2006, 09:03 PM

Print out your eBay receipt if you still have it, sell to to a buddy with a bill of sale and then have him sell it back to you with a bill of sale. Like that Beavis and Butthead episode where they sold each other the candy bars from school they were supposed to be selling to other people, and just kept passing the dollar bill back and forth until all the candy bars were gone and they each had fifty cents

There is some way to get through it, just be creative

Hatterasguy · #11 06-09-2006, 10:16 PM

Why can't one of your friends sell it to you?

Its a 20 year old car just have one of your friends write up a bill of sale and say it cost you $500 to avoid tax's. Thats how I got the SD, bill of sale was written on some notebook paper and I only paid $100 for it.

We tried saying my friend only paid a couple of grand for his S320, but if the car is pretty new in CT they go by book value.

Its an old car and the DMV is pretty stupid.

1badav · #12 06-09-2006, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Why can't one of your friends sell it to you?

Its a 20 year old car just have one of your friends write up a bill of sale and say it cost you $500 to avoid tax's. Thats how I got the SD, bill of sale was written on some notebook paper and I only paid $100 for it.

We tried saying my friend only paid a couple of grand for his S320, but if the car is pretty new in CT they go by book value.

Its an old car and the DMV is pretty stupid.

The whole problem is that the DMV wasn't stupid because they recognized that there was a broken chain of ownership. It had nothing to do with the value claimed to have been paid for it for tax purposes.

See my subsequent post for some possible ideas for a successful resolution.

1badav · #13 06-09-2006, 11:39 PM

I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

Before I begin, you are sure you don’t have any paperwork in your possession referring to dealer re-assignments correct? This is what a dealer uses to re-assign a title to a retail customer. Sometimes they are on the back of the title, but I have seen them on completely separate re-assignment documents when the dealer’s re-assignments are filled on the back of the title. Maybe you have it, or maybe the seller simply forgot to include it with your title. You might want to check on this.

This advice presumes(not assumes) that DMV’s in your state, as well as the state the seller/dealer of the vehicle function in a similar manner to the State of Wisconsin where I work at the DMV.

If the dealer re-assignment scenario does not apply, here are my thoughts:

First, the idea of trying to use printouts of the paperwork surrounding the eBay transaction might be sufficient, but I doubt highly that your state’s DMV would accept that. The documents are of a type that could too easily be manufactured by a dishonest person. When a state issues you a title(which is your ownership document) the state is certifying that you are in fact the legal owner of that vehicle, and excluding any liens that the state records to protect the secured party interests of any one else, you are being declared the sole and rightful owner. The state has liability to compensate anyone whose rights they terminate by issuing an improper title. Therefore, the state will bend over backwards to cover it’s own butt with a paper trail(i.e. original documents with original signatures, dated, correct VIN #’s, etc., etc.)

If you are going to try this approach, I would politely ask someone if there is a Manager or Supervisor you could talk to privately about “a situation you have”. I wouldn’t volunteer what you want to talk to them about, but if asked I wouldn’t lie either. The people at the counter, with rare exceptions, aren’t interested in unique or effort-consuming transactions—just keeping the line moving. Fortunately, I don’t work in that kind of environment, because I couldn’t handle it. My co-workers and I love working on this kind of stuff. I think a Manager or Supervisor would be more sympathetic, would have more ideas and resources on how to resolve this, or best of all, the ability to authorize acceptance of what you brought with you as proof of ownership. Definitely take everything you have-cancelled checks, correspondence, eBay info., etc.

I really think, however painful it will seem to be to deal with this guy again, your best chances would be to try and get a signed Bill of Sale from the dealer. If I were you, I would draft the Bill of Sale myself so that it read how I wanted it to read (check with your state’s DMV as to what exactly need’s to be on it, whether it needs to be notarized etc etc). I then would draft a cover letter outlining why you needed the dealer to do this, enclosed a return self addressed and stamped envelope and ask that it be returned within a specified period of time. Make copies of what you send, and send it registered certified mail, return receipt requested.

If you don’t get it back within the time frame you specified, send another letter the same way and tell him you have shown the eBay paperwork and supporting documents to your DMV representative you are working with, and he feels that absent a Bill of Sale by the dealer, that an attempt to title jump on the part of the dealer is taking place and that he recommends contacting the seller’s dealer licensing investigator in his state about this matter. This might provoke a reaction from the seller. Give this a couple of days.

If still nothing, I would send a detailed letter to the dealer investigator unit of the seller’s home state dealer licensing unit explaining your situation and describe in detail how this guy is being uncooperative, and ask if he/she could help you secure a Bill of Sale, or at the very least, copies of whatever paperwork the dealer had to file/maintain as part of his dealer transaction records. The investigator, if he/she gets curious enough about this guy, or if he has a history of doing this kind of sleazy activity, and they’ve been looking to nail him, may be surprisingly helpful.

Dealers have to maintain and submit all kinds of documentation re: their transactions. If he is guilty of title jumping(not filling in the dealer re-assignment on the title for ownership transfer to a retail customer) he may find himself in hot water with his regulatory agency resulting in fines and other disciplinary action up to, and including, loss of dealer license.

Lastly, I would investigate whether your state offers the option of securing a bond for the value of the vehicle for a set period of time(maybe a couple of years).This usually satisfies the State that anyone with a secured party interest in this vehicle would have asserted that claim during that time frame, and after that time frame ran with no claims presented, you would be eligible to receive a free and clear title. I don’t know what the cost or specifics of this type of arrangement are because this type of scenario isn’t handled at the DMV station level, but I know of instances where this has been done successfully. The downsides are obviously the hassle and whatever the bond costs are.

Anyway, I think the best approach would be to try and work the Bill of Sale out of the seller in an as-amicable-as-possible manner. If that doesn’t work, then try the intimidation-through-his-licensing regulatory-agency approach. Then, as a last resort before screwing around with the Court system in your state, maybe try the bond approach.

I wish you luck, I’ll be watching for what I hope is your successful outcome in future posts.

thelazzarusman · #14 06-10-2006, 06:21 AM

Let's assume I can get in touch with the previous owner who are listed on the title. I have no idea if they're even alive, but if they complete a bill of sale and mail it back to me, would that be sufficient? By the way, the previous owner did sign the section of the title to relinquish ownership of the vehicle, leaving the recipient's name box blank. He did not give a date for the handover, nor did he name the price on the title (it's a CA title--there's no box for that)

D

nhdoc · #15 06-10-2006, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thelazzarusman

Let's assume I can get in touch with the previous owner who are listed on the title. I have no idea if they're even alive, but if they complete a bill of sale and mail it back to me, would that be sufficient? By the way, the previous owner did sign the section of the title to relinquish ownership of the vehicle, leaving the recipient's name box blank. He did not give a date for the handover, nor did he name the price on the title (it's a CA title--there's no box for that)

D

So why don't you just fill in your name and address in the "buyer's information" section and be done with it? Is there any subsequent transfer below the seller's section to deal with?

When I bought my '64 from the seller in California it came from them just signed and I filled out my name, address, etc in the section for the buyer data and the DMV accepted that...no bill of sale was needed.

BTW - the is the MO for the typical "curbstone" dealer...he buys a car from a private party and resells it. Since he's not a dealer he asks the seller to simply sign the title and leave the buyer's data blank, then the curbstoner resells it and the new buyer fills in the buyer data section with this new owner's data. Since the curbstoner is not a dealer he can't ever appear on the title...sounds like what you have and you don't need a bill of sale if you just fill in the buyer's section of the title with your information.