I have that paper too and I agree with what it says, but you're missing my point. You may want to read my last post to you one more time.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Is this huge thread really about comparing hybrid Honda to diesel MB? You'd have to drive a hybrid 100k miles with gas at $5 gallon to recover the premium added to the price. Doh. My 95 e300d gets so many SAFE miles per gallon that I don't even monitor mileage anymore. Putting your family in a hybrid is like putting them in a motorcycle sidecar - real safe. I often see those honda insights on the road and from behind, I can see the driver's leg through the back window. That can't be good. Hybrids are a fad. The primary reason they've sold so well in VA is that they get a free ride on HOV (single occupant). Corvair of the 2000s without the cool dashboard shifter. Unsafe at any mileage.

I'm sorry, but this is just a bunch of baloney, except maybe the part about recovering the savings, but even that is relative.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

DieselAddict,
I will concede that the part where I state hybrids are a fad. Time will proove that. I will also concede that you probably cannot fit a family in a motorcycle sidecar. I will also concede that hybrids are unsafe at any speed. I was being tongue-in-cheek. However, I stand by the other parts of my post. Hybrids killed HOV in northern Virginia. 40% of vehicles on the hov lanes in northern VA are single occupant hybrids. Respectfully submitted.

I'm not missing your point. I can understand in theory that gasoline may release less CO2 than diesel per unit mass, but that seems secondary to the real world, where diesel engines use a thermally more efficient combustion cycle and extract more energy from the fuel, resulting in less CO2 emitted per mile traveled. The extra energy required to manufacture gasoline is also relevant, and adds even more CO2 emitted per mile.

All that said, a hybrid burning gasoline getting equal fuel mileage to a diesel may or may not be emitting more CO2 per mile. But I think we need to start getting away from gasoline engines for efficiency reasons, period.

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'83 240D with 617.952 and 2.88
'01 VW Beetle TDI
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD
'89 Toyota 4x4, needs 2L-T
'78 280Z with L28ET - 12.86@110
Oil Burner Kartel #35

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1...oD/bioclip.jpg

I am totally mystified as to what drives the automotive industry. I mean, the hybrids of today are MARKETED as fuel efficient, revolutionary, ECONOMY.. etc etc, but if there is one thing they fail most at it is being economical. With $5+k every 80k mi in maintenance costs alone, this is totally absurd. In my opinion, even the VW TDIs are waay over-engineered, and the older Benz, such as my 300TD, is more complex than need be. I would like to see an economy car designed with modularity, simplicity, safety, and fuel economy in mind. Basically, looking at the design problem from a standpoint of OVERALL economy for the end-user.

Heres my idea:

Straight-frame vehicle
mechanical diesel engine (rebuildable in-chassis)
5-speed manual tranny with splitter (such as Gearvendor i.e. 10 speeds)
4WD option (T-Case + front end)
different body options

This setup (namely the straight frame) allows multiple engine, transmission, drivetrain, and body options while maintaining a large selection of interchangeable parts, resulting in cheaper maintenance costs.

If this guy can get 30mpg in this rig with a Cummins 4BT, then it shouldnt be too hard to get close to 50 in a smaller vehicle designed for the purpose.

http://imageevent.com/moosecreekmaple/1943dodgecarryall

Seriously makes me think about ditching the Benz and taking on this project... same MPG and 10X the car.. not to mention lower maintenance costs.. probably

If you go to www.fueleconomy.gov you can look up the CO2 output from each model, and based on what they claim, the numbers are based on "full fuel-cycle estimates". I agree with you that gasoline isn't very efficient. It's probably the least energy-efficient fuel out there.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

I read somewhere that ethanol has even less BTUs than gasoline.. which would make E85 less efficient than regular gasoline... Wouldn't heavy oils with more BTUs such as bunker fuel be more energy efficient (in a diesel that could handle them)?

Yes, heavier oils are more dense and contain more energy per gallon. They also emit more CO2 per gallon. The trick is to efficiently convert that chemical energy to power in the most efficient engine design. The diesel engine is more efficient than the gasoline engine (in general), so you get the maximum power for each BTU (and each pound of CO2 emitted).

Ethanol does have less energy per gallon than gasoline, but it's (supposed) advantage is that it's renewable and it doesn't add any additional CO2 to the environment. Of course, there are arguments that the production of ethanol uses more (non-renewable) energy that it saves. Similar arguments can be made for (and against) bio-diesel.

for a little more of an on-topic thought:

I can see why a diesel-electric hybrid (such as a train) can be more efficient (engine always run @ optimal efficiency, electric motors produce more torque...), but why on earth would someone put a BATTERY in a car? Batteries are heavy, inefficient, and potentially dangerous... Wouldnt a diesel running a generator that runs the drive motors without a battery be more efficient by virtue of the weight savings? Also, wouldn't the whole setup be way more economical? Granted, you might have to idle for 15 or 20 minutes per day... which on a 1L diesel factors into what, a gallon or two per month? Also, I'm not sure how friendly it would be to a diesel to start and stop it so often (turbo bearings come to mind).

The real question is would that design be efficient enough to justify the cost difference from a conventional diesel drive-train? The only real advantage would be the ability to run the diesel engine at a constant (most efficient) speed. The downside would be the additional cost/weight of the generator and motors compared to a mechanical drive-train. It would be an interesting comparison. I agree you would want to let it idle when the engine was not needed.

Why would someone put a battery in a car? Because it's very efficient, that's why. Electric motors in general have a much higher energy efficiency than internal combustion engines, i.e. they can apply more of their source energy to the wheels. That one algae biodiesel report talks about energy efficiency. A regular gasoline car is something like 40% efficient (don't quote me on this), but an electric car is about 90% efficient. However, a diesel car running on biodiesel is something like 300% efficient, meaning that for every unit of energy used, 3 units are generated. But an electric car running off of purely green electricity (like solar, wind) would be the ultimate energy-efficient vehicle.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

I'm a little confused about the definition of efficiency being used. Yes, an electric motor is over 90% efficient, but the energy in the battery need to come from someplace else, like an onboard gas engine (15-20% efficiency) or an electrical generating plant (25-45% efficiency).

I don't understand, "a diesel car running on biodiesel is something like 300% efficient, meaning that for every unit of energy used, 3 units are generated." Are you referring to only the non-renewable fuel being used for the entire fuel cycle?

This thread is about as pointless as arguing about how coconuts get to England...It's not a question of how he grips it!...

Lots of talking out of the @$$...

Have fun...

-Jim

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1995 S350D, Green with black leather interior.
Bought January 2008 w/ 233,xxx miles.
I did 22,000 miles during the first year of ownership.

hey if you dont understand it you dont have to knock it.

tom w

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.