I rented an '06 Civic Hybrid last week (http://www.evrental.com/, around $175 for a week). I've always been curious to try out a hybrid car and see how the economy and driving experience compares to the Mercedes diesel.

The results: 37.4mpg average over 350 miles (about 225 hwy and 125 city).
My 190D-2.2, under the same driving conditions, gets the same mileage. For the spectacular difference in technology between the two cars, I expected more. Although, the civic is probably much better for the environment, which is important too.

The results from the previous driver of the car were even worse - 36.4mpg (I reset the trip odometer / fuel economy measurement before I started driving, so the previous driver's measurments aren't included in my results)

I was surprised that the Civic Hybrid wasn't more fuel efficient. It's reported to do much better than that (internet says 50mpg+). When I drove super carefully and gently on the freeway, I was able to briefly get it to 41mpg, but some city driving quickly brought the average back down below 40. I drive economically, so I'm not sure why the mpg wasn't better...

It has a CVT, which leads to a different driving experience. For normal acceleration, as soon as you take off from a stop, the engine goes up to ~2500RPM and stays there. The CVT gradually adjusts its gear ratio to bring you up to speed. It's a strange feeling to have the car accelerate without hearing the engine accelerate too. You often end up going faster than expected because without hearing the engine wind up, you think you're not speeding up. Acceleration is not very quick; it's on par with the 190D (a 5-speed) unless you really step on it and get the Civic up to 5000+ RPM. Then it is pretty quick.

When coming to a stop at a traffic light, the engine stops. As soon as you take your foot off the brake, it starts up again instantaneously. The process is seamless and works really well. The car never drives purely on electric power; if you're moving, the engine is on.

Around town, the Civic is much quieter than the 190D. You can barely tell when the engine is on or off. On the highway, the 190D is quieter; less road noise makes its way into the car.

The 190D handles better than the Civic. I entered a freeway off-ramp that curved much sharper than I expected and the handling was a bit precarious. The car felt as if its center of gravity was higher than the Mercedes; it tended to tip / roll more and lose control suddenly rather than gradually.

The braking and steering were more sensitive than the 190D. That's neither bad nor good, just different (although I just about went through the windshield the first time I stepped on the brakes). Braking recharges the batteries.

The civic seems well made; the doors and trunk close smoothly, easily and quietly, all interior pieces fit tightly, and the finishes and textures match. The interior was super spacey. No lump in the rear seat floor - it's flat. Lots of lights and buttons and digital gauges and stuff. Roomy, well designed, intuitive, etc. There's a real-time fuel economy meter but it's too sensitive; it basically just shows the position of the gas pedal. It would be better if it averaged the past 10-20 seconds of driving since it was always swinging back and forth from 10 mpg to 80mpg.

For a rental car, it was fantastic. $24 in gas to go 350 miles. Way nicer than the typical dumpy GM things most rental car companies offer.

From the perspective of owning one, I think it was an OK car, but in my experience, I don't see the added value of the hybrid system; you could probably get similar mileage from a regular Civic without the technological complexities and price premium. Perhaps something was wrong with this one, since the internet reports people getting 50mpg in the same car. Or maybe there are some special driving techniques required...

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1989 250TD Wagon 5-speed, 160,000mi ::: Dark gray metallic / black cloth
1984 190D-2.2 5-speed, 287,000mi ::: Silver-blue metallic / black MB-tex ::: SOLD

I'm interested in knowing how running the Air Conditioning factors into the overall scheme of things with a hybrid. If it's hot outside, does the engine stay on at stoplights? Does the mileage go down to 30 MPG? etc.

The really revolutionary hybrids are going to be diesel. Once one comes into availability, no one will buy a gasolene hybrid.

Ken300D

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1982 300D at 351K miles
1984 300SD at 217K miles
1987 300D at 370K miles

I think Volvo plans on selling diesel hybrids for big rigs in 2009. Probably not very many by then, but I think that was their target date.

I agree with you, imagine the mileage a diesel hybrid passenger vehicle could get!

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Ralph

1985 300D Turbo, CA model
248,650 miles and counting...

you get the best mileage in city driving. highway is rated lower than city driving. possibly the a/c affects the mileage? I was under the impression that the motor only started in the city after the electric motors got you moving...
nice play by play on it though.
thanks
John

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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

Ken-

It is indeed the A/C that kills the fuel economy of most hybrids. If the A/C is on (including the Defrost setting), then the engine is on at stoplights and at low speeds that would normally only require electric motor engagement. For most of the smaller hybrids, economy goes way down with A/C use, even on the highway. However, I believe a few of the companies building hybrids are working on systems that run the A/C with a separate electric motor so this problem can be bypassed.

-nate in detroit

I'm currently taking a course in hybrids. Tearing these cars apart is not fun. Gotta wear 1000v gloves, and go through special procedures to make sure the electronic motor isn't activated (scary cause you can't hear it).

These can be a huge problem in an accident. Right now firefighters and police forces are recieving training on how to approach a wrecked hybrid.

If a cable or the batterys short out to the frame, and you try opening the door or something to free the occupents, you may very well be killed. In fact, one of the first pages in the textbook has a full color photograph of an arm... most of the flesh was burned off, very gruesome. The person was killed after touching something he shouldn't when the system was still activated.

Probably? look at the fuel economy of basic Toyotas and Nissans of the mid eighties--- low 40's and up with a stick shift. You just have to compromise by getting rid of that extra horsepower, the needless electronic gadgets, and some NVH dampening mats, etc... and there are whole internet forums dedicated to the "science of eco-driving"

That's something I didn't mention. The air conditioning seems to be electrically operated. When you have the A/C on and stop at a traffic light, the engine still turns off as usual, but the air conditioning continues to run and blow cold air.

And when turning the A/C on, the instantaneous fuel economy meter did show a visible drop in economy.

I generally only used the A/C to cool down the car when I first got into it; I definitely didn't run it all the time. So it may have slightly affected my mileage. But you make a good point, those people getting 50+mpg must never use the air conditioning (or radio, or headlights, or power windows )

One thing the Civic Hybrid and the 190D have in common is that if you're accelerating and you turn the A/C off, you feel a surge of additional power the second you hit the switch...

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1989 250TD Wagon 5-speed, 160,000mi ::: Dark gray metallic / black cloth
1984 190D-2.2 5-speed, 287,000mi ::: Silver-blue metallic / black MB-tex ::: SOLD

Given the little 190D is furiously SAFE and has a rigid passenger cell and all the other features which demonstrate the Mercedes commitment to active and passive safety,

and the price of hospital bills or a funeral, after a HUGE wreck, please tell me,

would you rather have the 190D or the Hybrid Tuna Can?


You tell me.

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1991 560 SEC AMG, 199k <---- 300 hp 10:1 ECE euro HV ...

1995 E 420, 170k "The Red Plum" (sold)

2015 BMW 535i xdrive awd Stage 1 DINAN, 6k, <----364 hp

1967 Mercury Cougar, 49k

2013 Jaguar XF, 20k <----340 hp Supercharged, All Wheel Drive (sold)

The early neons with manual transmissions get great numbers-- on my last full highway trip, full a/c useage-- It returned 36.7MPG.

I am a fan of technology whenever it is actual technology, but these hybrids are superfluous-- we just don't need them. It is one of those things that should have been an exercise and not actually have made it to the production stage, but I fear that this type of thing is going to become all to pervasive-- If they can hook consumers on needlessly expensive(and complex) products, thenn they stand to make better profits.

These things aren't sold to benefit the consumer.

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For the same mileage, the diesel is "better" for the environment. But if you want even more "betterness", compare the two vehicles on biodiesel.

BTW, my first Honda Civic, a 1976 year model, routinely got better than 40 mpg highway. The ancillary technology has improved, but not the Otto/Diesel cycle engine efficiencies.

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'83 240D with 617.952 and 2.88
'01 VW Beetle TDI
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD
'89 Toyota 4x4, needs 2L-T
'78 280Z with L28ET - 12.86@110
Oil Burner Kartel #35

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1...oD/bioclip.jpg

i saw one of those new civic "hybrids" i asked the owner what he thinks about it and he said, well its not a true hybrid, but its stick and i do get 46 mpg consistantly on the highway...he added that if it was diesel and a true hybrid he would be all over one

That isn't an apt comparison because petrodiesel is available countrywide-- try finding biodiesel at every exit. To compare these things, one needs to use *commonly available* fuels-- not boutique products. Things you could easily find not being an 'expert.'

You do bring up a good point, though-- even if in a round-about way.

How much energy could be saved if automobiles were built to last 3 decades instead of 1? How about a car built well that will last 400k minimum, but still returns 50mpg and won't fall apart at the seams the moment the last payment is made?

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http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i1...Untitled-1.jpg

i laughed when i found out that the new S-Class is more enviromentally friendly than the current Prius

I've said it before here, what has 20 years of technology done for us? My 1987 Honda (Civic) CRX - HF (High Fuel Lean Burn Design) got way better mileage than anything available for sale in US. Yes it weighed 1700 pounds and was the slowest death trap and no safety stuff. However, could we not have learned something in the past 20 years???? Other than bigger and more luxurious even in an economy car.

New Honda Fit seems kinda interesting.

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raMBow

1999 E300DT Obsydian Black Metallic, Heated Full Leather Parchment options, E2, K2, 136,000+, best 36.5 mpg - GP's 12-04 & 11-12 Zero Stuck
2010 Honda Odyssey - The BrideMobile - best 26.5
(2) 2005 Honday Accord- (1 -Corporate 1 - Personal) - 110,000 4-cyl 30mpg
2000 VW Golf GLS TDI, Upsolute Chip (sold to Brother, now 300+k on it) 48.5 mpg like clock work
1987 Honda CRX HF - Sold 87,000 always over 50 mpg Max 67 mpg