Thinking about selling the TDI for an MB - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

babymog · #46 12-18-2006, 10:22 PM

I was really tired of the poor ride I got from a new Jetta loaner last time my 124 was in service, kind of surprised me since I was pretty satisfied with the ride of our new Jetta II years ago, tastes and the desire to endure the ride change.

Personally, you couldn't give me a FWD car, my wife and I swore them off after having to drive them in snow, cheap way to build a car but certainly not the best.

Keep the Tdi if you like it.

Personally, I like the 124 diesel. The 2.5turbo isn't fast in that car, but not terrible either. Maintenance isn't bad either IMO, if the car has a good history.

Currently I have a couple of older ('87) Mercedes. One a 190D turbo, rides great and is fast, betrays its 3050 lbs. The other a 300D turbo faster still (in '87 only, after that it got the 5-cyl engine of the 190D turbo). The 190 is a no-maintenance car, pretty much start it and drive it. Best mileage with tires hard is low 40s, normal with fuel-flap pressures is high 30s, 29 around town driving spirited.

The 124 has a few more systems to wear and fail, still a very reliable car in my experience. By far the highest maintenance car I've owned was our Jetta II, worst dealer service also. I wouldn't be afraid of an older-used 124 diesel, if you know the history and it hasn't ever been in trouble.

rwthomas1 · #47 12-18-2006, 11:09 PM

Kinda funny how many chime in and don't actually own a TDI. Well my mothers friends uncle had a buddy whos kid owned a TDI and it was crap. Dismissing a TDI because it is FWD is BS too. Take a look around and you will see that MOST cars built today are FWD. Yes it may be cheaper to build but for normal driving FWD is just fine. You can rant and rave about how superior RWD is, how great the handling is, etc. but 99% of all driving you would never know the difference. FWD is bad in snow? Where do you live? Arizona? I'll put my TDI with plain old M+S tires on it up against ANY front engine/RWD car, snow tires or otherwise, stock sized only please. If you can go farther than the TDI in deep snow I will GIVE you the car! Complete hogwash that a RWD is better in snow. If you are driving hard enough for there to be a significant difference in handling between FWD and RWD on streets then you are likely driving way too fast anyway. I don't have any problem with RWD cars, I have owned many, including several high performance models. This prejudice against FWD is ridiculous. RT

aklim · #48 12-18-2006, 11:21 PM

Just because most cars are FWD doesn't mean I will like them.

I like RWD because it behaves one way. That means I don't get too used to one way and then have to get caught by surprise. So, either it is FWD or RWD for me. Since I like to launch ever chance I get, it will be RWD. Only way I get a FWD is if it is working and under $100 and I need a beater. Yes, it is better in snow than my car on Blizzaks. However, I am not used to it and don't like to switch modes. On take off, all my RWD cars kick out one way so I don't want to get used to a car that doesn't kick out and when I switch to my RWD, I forget.

Yes, I do like to haul around the corners when I can and take off as hard as I can on ramps when there is little traffic. Yes, I often trip the ESP light in the E300 when taking corners.

justinperkins · #49 12-19-2006, 05:36 AM

Well then maybe I should get an R32 and drop a 2.5 TDI in it

Hatterasguy · #50 12-19-2006, 12:21 PM

Yeah nothing beats FWD in the snow, except AWD or the old VW Bug.

Still living by the water we get enough snow to really need FWD/AWD maybe 3-5 times a year. Figure I get cought out in half.

I could almost keep my summer wheels on through the entire winter.

I don't know about you guys but I get info about cars I want from other people who own them. I'd say that most of the TDI owners I talk with are very happy with them. But some are not. My dads friend has one and most certainly is not, VW had to replace the engine on that one. I think at like 60k miles, but it was the crappy dealers fualt.

babymog · #51 12-19-2006, 03:38 PM

You don't have to own a Tdi to dislike VW quality/service/ride, you can own a gas Jetta/Golf and know how it'll ride and hold up. I stopped buying new Volkswagens because I got tired of my cars sitting at the stealer waiting for parts and service.

Yes FWD is good for ameteurs in snow, but here in Michigan we get real snow, have to drive in it when it's not plowed, or run through deep slush to change lanes, I agree that FWD is better in parking lots but in my 1500miles/week regardless of weather, I choose RWD over FWD, and AWD over both. Been there, done that. Sure I'll wrestle a good RWD car around in traffic in a snowstorm to your FWD, the lack of directional stability in a FWD car with wheels spinning is a lot of fun eh?

BTW, production numbers? Yes, all of the cheapest cars in the world are FWD, all of the high-end cars in the world RWD or AWD. If more means better then the Taurus is better than the S-Class, ... a seat for every butt.

rwthomas1 · #52 12-19-2006, 05:16 PM

, the lack of directional stability in a FWD car with wheels spinning is a lot of fun eh?

I don't really understand how the front wheels spinning, as in no traction, is any different than the rear wheels spinning. If the front wheels are spinning then likely you are trying to accelerate, and granted the front end may slide one way or the other but at least this may be countered by turning the steering wheel to compensate and pull the car in the direction you wish to go. Once you are moving the wheel spin is a non-issue. If you are spinning the wheels then likely you need to get your foot out of it. RWD demands far more attention as the rear end is far more likely to step out in either direction either when accelerating or during any turn. I am far from a novice at winter driving and I currently wheel a 7000+lb truck around all winter. Being diesel and RWD the torque has no problem making the rear step out whenever I choose to do so and plenty of times when I don't want it to. I fully understand that pure numbers of FWD cars produced do not make them automatically better. Its not the numbers that makes them better, its the fact that the weight of the engine/transmission is placed squarely above the drive wheels that makes them better. Thats why anyone with a brain puts a couple hundred lbs of sand in trunk of a RWD and a decent set of snow tires if they plan on going anywhere in a blizzard. Drive whatever you want but my VW FWD cars have gotten me home in conditions where I was passing snowplows and everything else was in the ditch for hours on end. Would an MB make it? Maybe, but would have been much more dicey.

Additionally, how many people do you know that own and use tire chains? 50 years ago they were common. How many people have dedicated snow tires instead of M+S rated tires? Studded snows? Hmmm, this couldn't have anything to do with the widespread FWD use? Sure, FWD is a compromise, but what isn't?

RT

DieselAddict · #53 12-19-2006, 06:50 PM

rwthomas, you have it wrong about the FWD. If the front wheels lose traction you lose steering ability, plain and simple. That's the opposite of what happens to the rear on a RWD vehicle when the drive wheels lose traction. The rear tends to "step out" as you correctly mention, but on a FWD vehicle the front doesn't step out, it just goes straight. That can be a problem when you need to turn.

I would say a RWD can be more nerve-wrecking on the snow because of the oversteer factor and the frequent directional correcting that may be required. FWD, on the other hand, may seem deceptively easy and predictable on the snow, until there's a turn coming up and you can't turn because the front is spinning or locked up.

In both cases you want to maintain static friction on all tires as much as possible, i.e. prevent spinning and locking up.

As for RWD vs. FWD, I'd take a front-heavy FWD over a front-heavy RWD anyday. But MB's are pretty well balanced so RWD is ok on them.

babymog · #54 12-19-2006, 06:51 PM

You're comparing apples to oranges with driving a truck RT. Tremedous rear weight bias, if it were FWD it would get stuck in a wet loading dock.

Yes chains and studs are less common, in most states studs are illegal, and 50years ago there wasn't such a thing as a radial passenger-car tire, ... Well just starting to exist anyway, very uncommon. The same thing with hydrophillic tread compounds and other M&S rated tire technologies, siping wasn't even heard of. Your claims are absurd, FWD didn't kill the studded tire's popularity, sorry. If it had, I wouldn't have a set of hakks on the quattro, and a set of chains for the Land Rover.

I understand that you like FWD just fine, so stick with it and you'll be happy. I feel that it is adequate for following other cars in existing ruts down the road, it is when you try to change lanes and get out of those ruts that FWD can't hack it. RWD excels for those of us who push the limits a bit, AWD is the next step.

Perhaps I do drive faster than you do, the difference in opinion of what's best might be due to our different driving style and conditions. I can't stay home and wait for the plows, I have a 400mile commute 3times/week.

A quick primer on FWD dynamics however:

With FWD the front tires, with a finite amount of friction, use that friction to turn AND to pull the car. You have to give up some steering friction for pulling the car. When you are in dicey conditions where you need all of the available friction to steer the car, you can't use any power, example: changing lanes with snow or slush between lanes. To make the same manuver that I can with the power on, you have to let up on the pedal so that you can change lanes or corner. Been there / done that many times, won't put up with it anymore so I've sworn off FWD. If my snow driving were limited to light snow and plowed roads it might be different.

There is a very sound reason why race cars have RWD, even dirt-track racers. Unless racing against other cars in the same FWD class, FWD doesn't compete (except for ice-racing where the use of the handbrake while under power is helpful, but I'll happily kick-butt in my quattro).

If the original poster isn't concerned about FWD vs RWD or AWD, it seems that a simple comment of opinion like some of us made that we don't like FWD or don't care for it in snow should be fine. Sorry that it has you upset. Personally, if Audi were sending their turbodiesel quattros over here, I would never have bought my 4matic, nor my RWD diesels. Permanent AWD is the real deal.

justinperkins · #55 12-19-2006, 08:19 PM

Interesting how this post turned into a debate about FWD vs. RWD.

I live in Austin, so either one is perfectly fine as I never see a drop of snow.

Snibble · #56 12-19-2006, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stcbenz83

do you have a diesel?

I don't *own* one... but I occaisionally drive an Audi A3 turbo diesel.

aklim · #57 12-19-2006, 08:34 PM

What's the difference whether Snibble owns or doesn't own a diesel?

justinperkins · #58 12-19-2006, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

What's the difference whether Snibble owns or doesn't own a diesel?

Because he said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snibble

Stick with the TDI. Very good engines and the Golf is a pretty darn nice car. The Golf IV is a very nice looking car... better than a W210 in the looks dept.

And then somebody asked him if he owns a diesel.

Hatterasguy · #59 12-19-2006, 09:37 PM

All I know is that my RWD older MB's can't get up the hill I live on when theres like anything more then 3-4 inch's of snow on the ground. Any FWD car can, I never had an issue with FWD cars. Later MB's with traction control and LSD's can as well.

Stopping and driving seem about the same, like with any car when the wheels spin you let off the throttle so the who steering thing with FWD is pretty mute. Any car when it gets slidding will go no matter what you do with the steering wheel, if its real slick out. Sometimes all you can do is hold on for the ride.

Now for fun RWD are the best, you can control some amazing slides. AWD is the best of both worlds. I tried gunning a late model A6 up a slick driveway and it just kind of did its thing. AWD is pretty cool.

bullwinkle · #60 12-19-2006, 09:56 PM

I agree that RWD/AWD (or even 4WD) is more fun in good conditions, but in the serious ice storms we get here in the Midwest I'd be lost without my FWD and studless winter tires-RWD on ice is not much fun, AWD/4WD in heavy snow is the most fun on the road you can have!!!

The Mercedes stays parked-got enough rust already!