1985 300D: Is it a Federal or California? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Tubber · #1 09-01-2007, 11:14 AM

I originally started this Thread here:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=198529

But I guess I poorly chose the title and turned many people off because it's such a common question and the info is right there. Please look at the pictures I attached to the above thread and tell me if its a Federal or California after reading below.

The car has no Trap Oxidizer and has no upright air filter near the passenger side headlight. My air filter is a circular shaped and rests atop the turbo.

However, my vacuum system has components that are NOT found on the Federal 1985 diagram but ARE on the 1985 California diagram; specifically:

Vacuum Transducer (123 on Schmid Cali diagram; blue thingy pictured in thread above), and the Vacuum Switchover Valve (125) for the Transducer (located behind the brake booster on the firewall). I have not been able to varify if (126)( Switchover valve for the boost pressure aneroid) is there or not at this point. At this point, the above assumptions are only that after looking at my setup and the diagrams of Peter Schmid. I am of course addressing vacuum related shifting, door lock issues etc and I need to know what diagram I'll be working off of. I'm not sure how much messing around the previous owner did with it but there certainly was some.

Can someone help me? I've seen some great knowledge here from many.

Thank you

Blaine

JimmyL · #2 09-01-2007, 11:19 AM

My '85 Fed has the items above listed as "Cali" only. You have a Fed.

Tubber · #3 09-01-2007, 11:32 AM

Thanks Jimmy,

Further question would be what diagram do you go off? And if its the Cali, what items do I "ignore"?

And, are the switchover valves for the transducer, and vacuum converter electrically operated or operated by another method?

Got my Mityvac in hand just waiting to go.....

Blaine

JimmyL · #4 09-01-2007, 11:35 AM

Blaine, you're heading into areas I don't know that much about. I haven't done anything to my vac system other than repair leaks in the cabin area. All that crappage is still hooked up on mine. I haven't even disabled the EGR yet......

Tubber · #5 09-01-2007, 11:41 AM

Thanks for the honesty. I'll wait for someone to chime in if they know, or if theres a thread on the subject. I'll check around myself in the meantime.

Thanks!

Jeremy5848 · #6 09-01-2007, 12:12 PM

Referring to the pictures in the other thread --

The blue thing in picture #3 is related to the transmission. Make sure all of the hoses are in good shape and leave it where it is. Don't disturb the lines that feed pressure to the ALDA. The pressure lines have clamps on them -- vacuum lines don't. Make sure the rubber is in good condition but don't remove.

The large and small vacuum relay things in picture #2 are for the EGR and ARV. I have removed the EGR, plugging the outlet from my trap ox (you don't have one, there is an outlet in your exhaust manifold) with Brian's kit. You can do that, too.

The ARV is part of the turbo, can't be removed, but you can remove the vacuum line and cap the ARV's vacuum port to keep it clean.

Then trace and remove the vacuum lines and those two vacuum relay things. Label the lines (ARV) and (EGR) so you can put it back if ever necessary. I removed the package with all of the lines attached as a unit.

The two vacuum relay things each have a vacuum source line (from the quad splitter -- remove the lines and switch to a splitter with two instead of four ports. Each relay has an electrical connector. Unplug them and tape them to the other wires. They are polarized and cannot plug onto the wrong relay.

There are also a pair of vent lines with a small filter. They go to the cabin, where the air is cleaner than under the hood. "Venting vacuum" means letting air into the system, of course (you knew that

). You can just pull the vent line through the firewall -- it isn't attached on the cabin side.

You will end up with an EGR valve and its metal flex tubing, and the two vacuum relays with all of their attached hoses. Box them up and put them away.

See this link for vacuum diagrams.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=105297

Jeremy

Tubber · #7 09-01-2007, 03:43 PM

Jeremy, thanks for the help,

You'll have to excuse me, I'm more of a visual learner so I have a few questions; some are lengthy and might be wordy...sorry. I'll be referring to the 85 California diagram.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy5848

The large and small vacuum relay things in picture #2 are for the EGR and ARV. I have removed the EGR, plugging the outlet from my trap ox (you don't have one, there is an outlet in your exhaust manifold) with Brian's kit. You can do that, too.

I'm not following you here, I think something got left out(?). I understand that I do not have a trap oxydizer as mine is a Federal and I cannot remove the ARV. I can replace the EGR with a kit sold by Brian? Am I following that correctly? Or I can simply plug the EGR off and leave it there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy5848

The two vacuum relay things each have a vacuum source line (from the quad splitter -- remove the lines and switch to a splitter with two instead of four ports. Each relay has an electrical connector. Unplug them and tape them to the other wires. They are polarized and cannot plug onto the wrong relay.

As I'm new and don't know all the slang terms; when you said vacuum relays, you meant the switchover valves? And if thats correct, I'm removing both the switchover valves for the transducer and the vacuum converter? Sticking with that and referring to item 125 on the diagram, do I re-connect the "VCV" port on the transducer(123) underside to the 3-way connector atop the dashpot leading to the VCV on the IP? Then I'd block off the open side of the 3-way connector next to 63A?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy5848

There are also a pair of vent lines with a small filter.

I think I see that between the vacuum converter(84) and the switchover valve (81) this is the vent lines and filter you are referring? I'll just take the single vent line coming from the filter and push it through the firewall where other lines are run?

I like your suggestion of http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=105297 better than the actual Schmid webiste; you can zoom in on this one and see it clearer.

Look forward to the response

Blaine

Tubber · #8 09-02-2007, 08:42 AM

I checked my setup last night. Oxidyzer trap is NOT there; good news. It appears there are minor items missing such as the white orfice between the check valve (140) and the 3-way splitter containing (63) and (63b). Also the 3-way splitter off the 4-way which is off the check valve (140) is missing. Just waiting for clarification for the above post and I can start "re-arranging". Curious though; now it seems that after figuring out whats missing, I'm missing a vacuum source for my central locks. Not bothered by that at this moment too much as the locks hold zero vacuum anyways.

Thats all for now.....

Blaine

JimmyL · #9 09-02-2007, 10:26 AM

Blaine, if possible, please document this whole process you are going through with photos. Before, during and after. Your info along with pics could be the definitive information on this swap for years to come.

Jeremy5848 · #10 09-02-2007, 12:29 PM

Blaine,

Let me try to weave my answers in among your questions. I'll try to find some photos to add but will also make reference to the photos in your other thread.

Quote:

I'm not following you here, I think something got left out(?). I understand that I do not have a trap oxydizer as mine is a Federal and I cannot remove the ARV. I can replace the EGR with a kit sold by Brian? Am I following that correctly? Or I can simply plug the EGR off and leave it there?

Brian's kit allows you to remove the EGR and block off the hole in the intake manifold with a stainless plate. The hole in the exhaust manifold is blocked with a copper disk, also part of the kit. You can also leave the EGR in place and simply remove the vacuum line or plug the line. In the latter case, the car looks stock but the EGR and ARV don't do anything.

Quote:

As I'm new and don't know all the slang terms; when you said vacuum relays, you meant the switchover valves? And if thats correct, I'm removing both the switchover valves for the transducer and the vacuum converter?

The parts I refer to are (their correct names) #81 "switchover valve, vacuum converter," which controls #71 ARV, and #84, "vacuum converter," which controls #60 EGR. Both can be removed along with all their vacuum and vent lines if you either remove or block ARV and EGR. Looking at the diagram, I want you to see numbers 81 switchover, 84 converter, 60 EGR, and 71 ARV as a unit, a package, that can be defeated or completely removed.

Quote:

Sticking with that and referring to item 125 on the diagram, do I re-connect the "VCV" port on the transducer(123) underside to the 3-way connector atop the dashpot leading to the VCV on the IP? Then I'd block off the open side of the 3-way connector next to 63A?

Don't remove or other wise change #123 vacuum transducer or #125 switchover valve. Those help control your transmission. The place to block is at 63 (line to #84 transducer) and at the similar junction that goes to #81 switchover. If you trace the lines on the diagram, you will see which ones go where. Anything to do with the IP or the transmission should be left alone.

Quote:

I think I see that between the vacuum converter(84) and the switchover valve (81) this is the vent lines and filter you are referring? I'll just take the single vent line coming from the filter and push it through the firewall where other lines are run?

Yes, the vent line just goes into the cabin through a hole in the firewall. You can pull the line out from the engine side -- there's nothing on the cabin side, the line just ends under the dash. The filter #85 is in your #4 picture, center, near the bottom. It's just a tiny air filter to keep large chunks of grit

out of the vacuum system.

Once you have the vacuum source lines removed (#81 and #84 each have one), you can simply plug the unused ports in the rubber vacuum splitter (your picture #4 shows it) or replace it with one that has fewer ports.

I did an EGR DIY w/pix but it is for my California version so it won't be as helpful to you because the arrangement of parts is different. Still might be worth a glance.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=193198&highlight=egr

I hope this helps.

Jeremy

Tubber · #11 09-02-2007, 02:47 PM

Jeremy,

This is fantastic, thank you for taking the time to weave through my jargen. I hate to to this, but I do have a couple of minor "headscratchers" yet.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy5848

The parts I refer to are (their correct names) #81 "switchover valve, vacuum converter," which controls #71 ARV, and #84, "vacuum converter," which controls #60 EGR. Both can be removed along with all their vacuum and vent lines if you either remove or block ARV and EGR. Looking at the diagram, I want you to see numbers 81 switchover, 84 converter, 60 EGR, and 71 ARV as a unit, a package, that can be defeated or completely removed.

I follow that! I think I'll leave the EGR and VCV there for now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy5848

Don't remove or other wise change #123 vacuum transducer or #125 switchover valve. Those help control your transmission. The place to block is at 63 (line to #84 transducer) and at the similar junction that goes to #81 switchover. If you trace the lines on the diagram, you will see which ones go where. Anything to do with the IP or the transmission should be left alone.

Ok, got that too, only what happened to the vent line with the inline filter? The lines and filter came from #84 and #81 and now that their "source" lines are plugged (63b and 3-way splitter "upstream"). Where does the vent line fit in now or is it needed anymore?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy5848

Once you have the vacuum source lines removed (#81 and #84 each have one), you can simply plug the unused ports in the rubber vacuum splitter (your picture #4 shows it) or replace it with one that has fewer ports.

Ok, that makes sense. Can I use a splitter here to feed the central locks once I figure the problem out with them? And do you know the size orfice that goes to the central locks, or can it come straight off a splitter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy5848

I did an EGR DIY w/pix but it is for my California version so it won't be as helpful to you because the arrangement of parts is different. Still might be worth a glance.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=193198&highlight=egr

I'll have a look at it, it should clarify things as I said I'm more of a visual learner. I'll take photos as I go along for anyone else doing the same thing.

Thanks again

Blaine

FRANKNBENZ · #12 09-02-2007, 03:06 PM

Blaine,

I started getting serious about DIY maintenance after adding my third 85 300D Fed. A few notes on what I learned, first from the Noble Forum Fellows, and then under the hood of the fleet:

The vacuum guide I use is listed by phantom as 85 California. I went element by element, putting masking tape labels on everything "to", "from", etc. to get a hands-on. I also printed out the diagram, went to Kinko's or someplace and had the diagram only blown up to fill an 11x17 "B" size sheet. I got several copies, then transposed all labels from the legend right next to the elements on the diagram. Then I got some colored pencils to reinforce visually. This helped get over the nomenclature learning issue. Some points, conclusions, issues (as I, the rookie, saw them):

1. In each and everything, element by element, line/tube by line/tube, check hoses and fittings (pre-formed hoses) for cracks or stretching (loose fitting over nipples or hard tubes).

2. Item 140a, Check Valve, upper right corner, is California only; 140 is what my three Feds have. That 140 widget is on the two foot long, 3/4" thick hard black pipe going from the pie plate (servo) behind the brake reservoir to near the front of the engine (vac pump). Note the two nipples, one on the white check valve, one adjacent on the pipe body. Be very careful checking these or working under the hood in general. It is easy to break off one or both plastic nipples (say, while doing an oil filter changeout).

3. Item 123. Vacuum Transducer. Color it blue. Look for it on the L/F fender. Check all hoses for cracks, crud, etc. Note this puppy feeds the vacuum transducer on the tranny.

4. Items 72. Vacuum Dampers. Two on the drawing. Color green.

5. Items 63-series. Orifice Tubes. Note on the diagram and on the vehicle the locations and colors (clean off the crud first). While not delicate, be careful in pulling off, inspecting, cleaning, reattaching these. Remove, brake cleaner, pipe cleaners. Some techs are too lazy to redo hose couplings when they find a loose connection, so they glue them together.

6. Item 11. Intake Manifold. The item not labeled above the "110" is the location of the banjo bolt with its two thin, easily lost washers. This is the start point of a periodic maintenance item: cleaning the bolt (brake cleaner, Q-tips, pipe cleaners), the clear tube from it to Item 126, Switchover Valve, Boost Pressure Aneroid (located on the firewall in a hard to get at place near the driver's wiper. Note that while these common Switchover Valves has three ports, this line uses only the side and bottom (check hose fittings); the top port has a breather cap that looks like a black pencil eraser head. From here another clear tube goes to the Aneroid on the back of the IP (a.k.a. the ALDA). The ALDA, while not marked on the diagram, is the pancake-looking thing above the "66" (Injection Pump, or IP). There is a banjo bolt on this end as well. Two points:

6.a. Point One. For best performance, as mentioned, this vacuum line series needs to be cleaned periodically -- withouth losing banjo bolt washers.
6.b. Point Two. I noted on one of my cars, my mechanic "improved" performance by eliminating/by-passing Item 126, the Switchover Valve. Not good. Other threads will cover how to inspect and clean this item but it should be left in line, as part of the engine control system.

7. Item 84. Vacuum Converter. Black in color, just forward of the blue Vac Transducer, and looks similar. Check fittings and lines to-from.

8. EGR Removal. Looking at the diagram, Item 84, you should be able to see on the top the slightly tilted line labeled "EGR". This leads down and around the front of the engine to Item 60, EGR (has the accordion pipe). Many threads recommend plugging this line at both ends with B-B's. I removed the EGR and gasket, made a metal plate, gooped some hi-temp permatex on the edges, and bolted it back in. Just for grins (and probably not necessary), I cut and plugged each end wth more permatex and a 10p nail head.

9. Item 65. Vacuum Control Valve. A truncated line, labeled simply "a" indicates this is a vent-to-interior line. Note Item 85, Vent Filter, takes a "T" and also truncates as an "a". I replaced the "T" with a Cross Connector (4-way hose connector) and ran the hard line from Item 65 into it. Again, maybe no big deal, but now this line goes through a filter. I annotated my diagram showing the fix.

10. Item 85. Vent Filter. Make sure it's clean, else replace. Oil in here is a big boo-boo.

11. Item ??. Fuel Shut Off Valve or Anti-dieseling Valve. Neither drawn nor labeled on the diagram. This very important, innocent-looking valve sits low on the rear of the IP, under Item 85, Vac Control Valve. Sometimes a common problem (see threads "Engine Won't Shut Off" and such). A vacuum line -- again not shown in the diagram -- runs from it and routes into the passenger cabin. I think when one turns the ignition key to the first "Off" position, a signal is sent to some Switchover Valve in there, opening a vacuum demand to the Fuel Shut Off Valve, hence killing the engine. Point is: check all components on this line from the Shut Off Valve until it disappears through the firewall. If it or the line fails, other threads will help fix.

11. All Items "c". The notorious "Other Vacuum Consumers". Basically, this is all the spaghetti not covered above. Check lines and fittings otherwise not tagged. These go into the interior and serve: door locks, fuel filler door lock, trunk lock, climate control vent pods. As soon as I found this out, I purchased a MityVac (recommend the 4050, but you can get by with a 4000; both metal, not the plastic version). See other threads on How-To troubleshoot all that stuff.

Keep in touch. The 85 300D Turbo is a slightly more complex beast, but, some would say, as the last in the series, it's the best of the breed. Of course I'm prejudiced. I'll pass on anything I learned from this and other forums on the 85 and stuff I learned the hard way.

Good luck. Good motoring.

Frank

Jeremy5848 · #13 09-02-2007, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubber

.... what happened to the vent line with the inline filter? The lines and filter came from #84 and #81 and now that their "source" lines are plugged (63b and 3-way splitter "upstream"). Where does the vent line fit in now or is it needed anymore?

With #81 and #84 no longer doing anything, they can be removed or (as NASA says with rocket launchers) "abandoned in place." You can leave the vent line where it is or just pull the line out of the hole in the firewall and store it or throw it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubber

Can I use a splitter here to feed the central locks once I figure the problem out with them? And do you know the size orfice that goes to the central locks, or can it come straight off a splitter?

You can attach the lock system to the vacuum hose at this point. An orifice isn't needed. Based upon my limited understanding, the orifice is designed (for transmission and similar engine applications) to make the diesel's pump-operated vacuum system mimic how a gasser's intake manifold vacuum works. That allows Mercedes to use the same tranny for both diesels and gassers. Like a carburetor, the diesel vacuum system is a package of compromises -- that's why it's so busy; it's to M-B's credit that it works as well as it does.

When I began working on my EGR and ARV subsystem, I removed the vacuum lines at the devices and discovered (wonder of wonders) a steel BB in each line -- a PO had already disabled the functions. I left it alone while I learned more about the system

Next, I "cauterized" (with a soldering iron) the plastic vacuum source lines for #81 and #84 at their rubber splitters. I left all the parts (valves, EGR, etc.) in place. The subsystem looked stock but air (vacuum) would no longer flow through it. The purpose of this was to eliminate any possible vacuum leaks in the EGR/ARV subsystem from causing a loss of vacuum that might affect other car operations.

Then I bought one of Brian's kits and removed the EGR valve. At that point, the vacuum line from #81 (or is it #84?) just had to hang there -- no longer anything to plug it into.

Finally, I removed #81 and #84 and all of the associated vacuum and vent hoses. I did this slow step-wise procedure so that I could learn and understand what changes, if any, I had made and easily reverse it if necessary. I have all of the parts put away and could put them back if necessary. You could just as easily (many forum members do) remove everything at once.

I didn't notice any spectacular results, probably because the EGR vacuum line had already been plugged. The one thing that improved performance in my car was to discover and first patch, then remove and plug (part of Brian's EGR kit), the steel flex line from the trap cat (in your case, exhaust manifold) to the EGR. This was allowing some of the exhaust gases to escape into the engine compartment. Aside from getting black soot everywhere, it took forever for the turbo boost to build up because some of the exhaust gases weren't going through the turbo.

I expect another boost in performance when I finally am able to buy or make a "test pipe" and remove the trap cat.

Final advice: print out and save Frankenbenz's post. It puts a lot of good information in one page.

Jeremy

Jeremy5848 · #14 09-02-2007, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FRANKNBENZ

2. Item 140a, Check Valve, upper right corner, is California only; 140 is what my three Feds have. That 140 widget is on the two foot long, 3/4" thick hard black pipe going from the pie plate (servo) behind the brake reservoir to near the front of the engine (vac pump). Note the two nipples, one on the white check valve, one adjacent on the pipe body. Be very careful checking these or working under the hood in general. It is easy to break off one or both plastic nipples (say, while doing an oil filter changeout).

Frank, where exactly is the check valve? Or rather, are both of the white plastic nipples "protected" by the check valve, do they both retain some vacuum after the engine stops?

I ask this because I have a vacuum gauge permanently installed in the splitter on the rearmost (closest to the power brake booster) white plastic nipple. The gauge shows that the vacuum goes away when the engine is stopped. The main black vacuum line (and so too the check valve) is new (yes, I broke off one of the white plastic nipples last year

) . This suggests that I have a leak in one of the other "consumers" of vacuum. Just wanted to have a little more information before I start tracing.

Jeremy

DeliveryValve · #15 09-02-2007, 06:54 PM

Tubber,

Are you located in the UK?

Anycase, I am curious as to what is your "version" of your car. Run your vin# on this site and paste it's details here so we can all see it. It will show us what version you have.

http://www.mbclub.ru/mb/vin/?lng=eng